If You Tanks Can't Handle Your Oversized Pulls...

[Morningstar1337]

Why some tanks do this, I'll never know. But AMEN to your statement that they need to scale back and take it slower.

The answer is pretty obvious: impatience. From their perspective they are forced to do DoA content so that they can gear up and tackle the relevant content so they want to get the grind out of the way ASAP. Hence why Brayflox HM was a popualr place (especially back when you got all the myth after the first 2 bosses) as well as why the Hunt was abused the way it did at 2.3

[TouchandFeel]

Tbh, I've been on the opposite end of this situation, where I will be tanking in one of the new dungeons and for the sake of expedience I will pull two groups of mobs that are close together and have two aoe capable classes (two bards, blm+brd, etc.) and they single target through every group even after I ask them if they would please use aoe's when 3+ mobs are pulled. I don't die or really have any trouble with the pull, it just ends up taking forever to get through the dungeon. That and I've run into a lot of df healers that wait until I'm at <20% health before throwing out a heal before they go back to just sitting back and doing nothing. In the end I feel that it is not just about bad/lazy tanks, healers or dps but that there has been a large influx of bad and lazy players queueing for roulettes and just expecting for the rest of the party to carry them through.

[Galactimus]

Every tank needs to determine what he can handle at the start of every dungeon. You also have to do it pretty quick as people will get impatient. He/She needs to see:

- What his party make up is.
- How geared everyone is.
- Is there an "Adventurer in Need" bonus. (Pull less if someone is new)


Pulling one or two groups at a time (after level 50) is just silly. If you're not pulling 3-4 groups then you are not using any of the tools at your disposal. Your healers mp will be full and your tanks cooldowns will be gathering dust. I've mass pulled every dungeon and rarely have my healers run out of mp. And there's almost always a chunk of downtime between "mass pulls" that lets your cooldowns come back (running down corridors, single group road blocks you have to open, bosses etc.)

That said, the best way to learn is by pulling larger and larger groups. You'll eventually memorize every dungeons mob locations and know how much is safe as your gear level rises. If your party gets mad if you wipe, don't worry about it, mass pulling is a learning experience. However, there are some things you can do to make impossible pulls possible. The difference between a party wipe and mob extinction usually comes down to a heal or a benediction that was 1 second too late. This can be easily remedied:


Paladin
~~~~~

- Use Convalescence -right- at the start. Regens are one of the first things that will be applied to you and they can practically keep you alive on their own if they are buffed by your +30% HP recovered cooldown. Get it up quick before the regens start raining down on you.

- Stagger your cooldowns one or two at a time. Don't pop them all at the start and be defenseless during the second half of the battle.

- Hallowed Ground when you see the healer is losing the fight (obviously... but!) Five seconds before Hallowed wears off use an HQ Vitality Potion, this gives the healer time to top you up to an incredibly high HP level before you take damage again. Percent based heals and stoneskin will be more effective from that pot as well.

- Stun. Shield bash the four biggest threats to your party. Take each of them out of the fight for 6 seconds and your healer will be able to catch up on healing no problem.

- Sprint. When hate has been established and your cooldowns have all been used.. hit sprint and kite the mobs in a large circle! You'll still be hit by range attacks but you'll be taking significantly less damage while sprint is up. This is something I never see Tanks take advantage of.

- Tank LB. There's no point saving this for silly bosses. Pulling large packs sometimes requires everything. Blm and Smn rarely AoE LB. If they aren't taking advantage of it then use it yourself. When five dragons are using five "Strident Screams" to one-shot the entire party: Tank LB.

- Face the majority of the mobs! Blocking and Parrying do NOT work if you are being hit from behind. If mobs are surrounding you in a circle only one or two are going to be blocked and parried. Put your back against a wall, target a mob directly in the middle of the pack (so you are constantly facing the majority of them) THEN hit Bulwark.

- Stoneskin spam. You should be saving most of your MP for using Flash to maintain hate. But a few Stoneskins afterwards can save your life. This isn't used very often when you have so much more at your disposal, but if your healer is dead, stoneskin spam can sometimes keep you alive long enough to finish the battle.

- Extras. Eat food. Use Cover more often. Bloodbath + Fight or Flight + Circle of Scorn for a few hundred HP. And don't take wiping so seriously. (^_^)

[Barboron]

snip

If after pulling you need to do Hallowed, Sprint, or LB....the fight is already lost. Sprinting would be the least effective as you are screwing over any melee DPS and allowing the mobs to survive a bit longer.

[Galactimus]

If after pulling you need to do Hallowed, Sprint, or LB....the fight is already lost. Sprinting would be the least effective as you are screwing over any melee DPS and allowing the mobs to survive a bit longer.

It's using all the tools you have to survive. It's learning how to conquer every mass pull no matter how large it is. Keeping the Tank alive is priority #1 above all else. I'm sorry, but "precious melee DPS" can wait a few seconds until the healer has control of the situation again. Hallowed, Sprint, and LB give the healer the short bursts of time they need to regain control if the tank see's they are falling behind. Party wiping usually comes down to a heal that was 1 second too late. These abilities save party wipes plain and simple.

You practice using all of these tools and pulling four to five groups of mobs becomes easy. Thus far, there isn't a dungeon in the game where I haven't been able to mass pull every single mob in the area and survive. All of the Dragons at the end of Stone Vigil Hard usually requires Tank LB. As well as the five Dragons at the end of Snowcloak. Hallowed Ground makes all the mobs in the Hullbreakers Isle Cave much simpler. And sprint has saved my life more than I can count.

[Urtear]

full support of this post. I can't even count how many times I've had 'punch me in the face' tanks grab mobs like shoppers on Black Friday. Even when their life is below half and dropping fast, the limp-noodles continue to pull even more mobs. And the dps usually consist of a Nin and Smn. Not enough AoE to bring down large large groups fast enough. ilvl for these dungeons is 80. Not 120. You tanks who do this can say you control the pace of the dungeon, Rawr! My epeen is SO thick. Your bravado mean nothing if you have no one to heal your idiot ass. You are nothing without your healer. We healers aren't much without DPS and a Tank. DPS needs us BOTH. Overall, we're it's a TEAM effort. Not another session of you stroking your epeen, which is the size of half a pack of Rolaids at best. To the tanks who are considerate and thoughtful, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I will give my all to keep you alive, and I regret than I cannot queue to heal for you again.

[Barboron]

snippity-snip

We're talking about lots of trash though, if you don't allow the melee to do their job and kill things, it's not going to ease up on the healer. There will be the same amount of mobs ready to deal the same amount of damage once you stop running or sprint runs out. And sprint isn't going to last very long considering you would have been using TP to fight. Now, if you have a NIN, then kiting becomes a bit more plausible. I have kited as a NIN, throw down the AoE that heavies and pick them off one by one, but what your suggesting just doesn't seem as plausible. Picking them off decrease the groups required HPS. I would suggest picking ones off that don't go AoE, since you can just avoid that stuff.

If you have the LB at the end of Snowcloak, you're pulling too much for the healer. Those five dragons can easily be handled with the number of CDs given to PLD or WAR without the use of LB, that's just silly to waste it there. Yes, waste it. The time benefits from using it there as opposed to on the boss just doesn't add up to it.

[Fornix]

If after pulling you need to do Hallowed, Sprint, or LB....the fight is already lost. Sprinting would be the least effective as you are screwing over any melee DPS and allowing the mobs to survive a bit longer.

I don't agree with that assessment to be fair. In Sastasha HM when pulling the mobs prior to the final boss the sudden incoming damage is very heavy. Whilst the healer is still running and just settling in place, it may be very tough to keep the tank up in that pull. By starting with hallowed ground I've not had a single fail thus far. When about to run out, followed by sentinel and convalescence to allow some extra warming up for the healer. And once that runs out, the trash is mostly nuked to death already.

In case of 2 MDPS the lack of AoE skills makes it very tricky to pull off. Not impossible when running with guildies, however wouldn't do it with PUGs .

[Alukah]

If after pulling you need to do Hallowed, Sprint, or LB....the fight is already lost. Sprinting would be the least effective as you are screwing over any melee DPS and allowing the mobs to survive a bit longer.

We use HG as part of our usual strat for speed running when we do a premade expert, tank pulls everything in sight, HG so healer can drop 3 Holy without worrying about heals, overgeared BLM and SMN melt everything or half of everything by the time tanks health becomes an issue, if no HG then benediction is used at the end of triple holy.

Caster LB helps a lot too for those big packs.

HG and those def buffs makes PLD >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WAR when it comes to speed running with massive pulls, if DPS can kill them fast enough.

@Galactimus "When five dragons are using five "Strident Screams" to one-shot the entire party" - if you are stacking FIVE aevis then you are not doing your job properly, there's no reason to stack those harriers that use dragon blood with the other aevis, if you split them in two groups healer time will be better spent dpsing than casting medica.

[Barboron]

snip

It's not that I am against the use of the LB or HG for big pulls in dungeon, I just think it's unfair to put that strain on a DF group where you don't know the players' level of skill. Yeah, I like fast dungeons but I also like to be alive and HG won't get you out of every pull. :P

and snip

This looks at pre-made though and I think WAR and PLD are equally capable of large pulls. Offensive debuffs, vengeance, and bloodbath give a nice HP return on large trash pulls while dealing extra damage and aggro compared to that of a PLD. But, it depends on what your healer is use to, either or. Wouldn't put one above the other.