Summoner and MP

[Ardan]

You say that like Akiza's evidence and examples aren't also nonsense. >_>

Can't believe I didn't take that into consideration. Thanks for the refresher.

[Judge_Xero]

Summoner's don't have a reliable burst and they don't proc like other dps classes so it's unfair for them to be affected by a mechanic that is so debilitating like poor MP Conservation.

SMN has decent burst. Fester\ED + Pet.

Is mostly unaffected by movement due to a high % of damage being DoTs/Pet Damage.

Good AOE/Multi Mob damage potential.

High damage in general.

They don't rely on procs or positionals.

So I think a bit of MP Conservation in long fights is more than reasonable. As others have said it's simply remedied by small spurts of Ballad anyway.

i.e. T10 after adds die and you have to attack TooGud. Bard can apply dots/flaming arrow etc and then Ballad for a few seconds for such a minimal dps loss, since dots are still doing full damage.

[Sequora]

SMN has decent burst. Fester\ED + Pet.

Is mostly unaffected by movement due to a high % of damage being DoTs/Pet Damage.

Good AOE/Multi Mob damage potential.

High damage in general.

They don't rely on procs or positionals.

So I think a bit of MP Conservation in long fights is more than reasonable. As others have said it's simply remedied by small spurts of Ballad anyway.

i.e. T10 after adds die and you have to attack TooGud. Bard can apply dots/flaming arrow etc and then Ballad for a few seconds for such a minimal dps loss, since dots are still doing full damage.

When MP conservation is causing their overall DPS to be lower than the other DPS classes I have to disagree.

[Xisin]

I can agree that summoners need mp reductions across the board, although the pie thing on the nexus might be valid, but isn't that very gear specific? which is a direction SE has said many times they dont want their balance direction to go in.

[Judge_Xero]

When MP conservation is causing their overall DPS to be lower than the other DPS classes I have to disagree.

Please show me an example where having to choose to not use Miasma II with Contagion (120 Potency for 186 MP - 1.55 MP per potency) over just using Ruin (80 Potency for 79 MP 1 MP per Potency) - pushes SMN DPS below other classes. That's 40 Potency a minute.

Or how timing Fester with Bio, vs bursting it with Ruin II for a savings of 55 MP each Fester per minute (165 MP per minute)
*** You can do 2 Bio + Fester per minute + using one while clipping the GCD (0.75s loss on your 2.4s GCD - so essentially reducing that single Ruin to 56 Potency)

So, so far we have a 64 Potency (3.5 DPS) loss per minute with a savings of 272 MP.

It's hard to imagine that puts us well below other classes.

[Sequora]

Snip

It's hard to imagine that puts us well below other classes.

If the issue was as simple as taking miasma II out of our rotation, we wouldn't really have an issue. Weaving in ruin II between each GCD ability is a fairly substantial DPS increase. It's an extra 80 potency per cast. It's also extremely hard on your MP. Once we reach a low amount of MP, unless you have the BRD play ballad specifically for you, energy drain is required. Energy drain deals 150 potency vs a 300 potency fester, and restores a very small amount of MP. Having to use energy drain even 6 times in a fight is a 900 potency loss. We don't have the MP to keep up with our max DPS rotations that we've been using for previous patches. Other DPS classes are not having these extreme resource problems meaning they are able to keep their standard rotations up. The other half of the problem is all of the spell speed on our gear.

[Judge_Xero]

If the issue was as simple as taking miasma II out of our rotation, we wouldn't really have an issue. Weaving in ruin II between each GCD ability is a fairly substantial DPS increase. It's an extra 80 potency per cast. It's also extremely hard on your MP.

Exactly - That's why I gave examples of how to avoid using Ruin II/Miasma II and the potential loss/gain.

With just those two alterations in those long fights where SMN is greatly effected by MP issues, you can save almost the equivalent of 1 Energy Drain per minute worth of MP.
In a 10 minute fight, that's about 9 Energy Drains that have the potential to be Festers/Bane.

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Other things to note
- SMN over uses about 1300 MP doing a max damage rotation
- This amount can be reduced to 900 with a minimal loss in DPS < 10 DPS (better timings to avoid Ruin II)
- 100% Energy Drain usage vs 100% Fester usage is only 25 DPS vs 50 DPS (25 DPS loss @ i110)

[Sequora]

Exactly - That's why I gave examples of how to avoid using Ruin II/Miasma II and the potential loss/gain.

With just those two alterations in those long fights where SMN is greatly effected by MP issues, you can save almost the equivalent of 1 Energy Drain per minute worth of MP.
In a 10 minute fight, that's about 9 Energy Drains that have the potential to be Festers/Bane.

-------------------------------

Other things to note
- SMN over uses about 1300 MP doing a max damage rotation
- This amount can be reduced to 900 with a minimal loss in DPS < 10 DPS (better timings to avoid Ruin II)
- 100% Energy Drain usage vs 100% Fester usage is only 25 DPS vs 50 DPS (25 DPS loss @ i110)

Why should we have to lower our DPS at all? That on top of terrible gear itemization is a problem that is going to put us behind other DPS classes.

[Judge_Xero]

Why should we have to lower our DPS at all? That on top of terrible gear itemization is a problem that is going to put us behind other DPS classes.

Well, don't forget that SMN can attack multiple mobs at once. Even without using Bane, just putting DOTs up on multiple mobs is ridiculous for Potency/MP efficiency.

So in instances where you might have to trade Fester for Energy Drain, you can also have multiple DoTs running on multiple mobs. So while you may lose 12.5 DPS by using Energy Drain half the time over Fester, you are also doing X * #Mobs extra DPS vs a single target rotation.

It takes 11 Casts of Ruin (869 MP) to equal putting your 3 DOTs on one extra mob (890 Potency @ 398 MP) that's about a 70 DPS boost vs single target in just 3 GCD (on just one extra mob)

So, if there was an 11 minute fight without any other mobs, but the boss, I could see where SMN would fall behind.

[Havenchild]

Well, don't forget that SMN can attack multiple mobs at once. Even without using Bane, just putting DOTs up on multiple mobs is ridiculous for Potency/MP efficiency.

So in instances where you might have to trade Fester for Energy Drain, you can also have multiple DoTs running on multiple mobs. So while you may lose 12.5 DPS by using Energy Drain half the time over Fester, you are also doing X * #Mobs extra DPS vs a single target rotation.

It takes 11 Casts of Ruin (869 MP) to equal putting your 3 DOTs on one extra mob (890 Potency @ 398 MP) that's about a 70 DPS boost vs single target in just 3 GCD (on just one extra mob)

So, if there was an 11 minute fight without any other mobs, but the boss, I could see where SMN would fall behind.

You only get 2 DoTs per Energy Drain and thats Bio2 & Bio or Miasma & Bio.