When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

[Ignnis]

I'm sorry, but just watching videos isn't experience in field, and people need to understand this.

Telling us to youtube it, while not even practicing ourselves, does very little to gain experience doing it. And besides, do you honestly expect a fresh noob to remember everything in that video while actually playing and paying attention?

That's like saying, go listen to this song on youtube, then play it on the saxophone when you've never even picked up one or know the keys.

Those videos rarely go into detail on job specific roles, only mechanics.

Well, yes and no. Watch a video (and if you search hard enough you will find one for each role) and at least you will know what to expect. Theres nothing more disheartening than having a tank or healer join in titan ex and the conversation going like this:

Tank/Healer: Hi first time
Party: Ok, watched a video?
Tank/Healer: No I like to wing it
Party:....

Im still working on my titan ex clear and Ive watched several videos, I know whats coming but like you said watching them =/= experience but I know what to expect and I don't just stand there picking my nose staring at the floor of bombs like they're going to magically tell me which ones about to explode then what titan does next.

Edit: With your saxophone thing id at least expect the new players to know what buttons to press to use skills and move etc.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

@Remilla, how can you practice if people keep kicking you if you fail because you miss experience that you cant acquire since nobody let you acquire it since for those you are just a jerk stupid idiot that cant learn, learning that you cant do since you can never practice up to the end???

seems a strange concept to me......for that reason, for me personally, I prefer by far DF, I will repeat over and over again the same thing, until is anchored in my mind, after that, is a question of finding or rather getting the right party...and it goes through..can take several weeks/ months / attempts to finish a given thing. I am not busy, I have time, patience. I know that nothing ever is insta.

Besides, in a group, is not always you the problem there are other people with you....not sure why is such a hard concept.

Mei

Get into a raiding Free Company. "Not sure why this is such a hard concept."

[Gardes]

@Remilla, how can you practice if people keep kicking you if you fail because you miss experience that you cant acquire since nobody let you acquire it since for those you are just a jerk stupid idiot that cant learn, learning that you cant do since you can never practice up to the end???

You find like minded people to practice with. I have been on t9 since july (iirc) and have only seen a quarter of the fight after spending one month in t9. After that my group had to disband due to various reasons. We kept going and trying to find people and went through at least 3 iterations of the group. Most of the players we got aren't experienced with scob in the least and we had to retrain the earlier turns for their sake (and our sake) but it kept falling apart due to schedule changes and I never progressed any further than my first group's progress. We almost gave up trying to stick together and during our limbo period we went even further 'back' for human resources and got most of our small fc through t5 and recruited the players that are interested in scob and are willing to commit.

Our current group started about 2 weeks before vegas fanfest and by vegas fanfest they all agreed to pour in all they effort into only t9 (some of our members still dont have a t7 and 8 win). We increased the frequency of our practice to 4 days a week, 2 hours a day instead of just 3 days. We smashed our faces against the t9 bosses over and over until we progress further in the fight. There were many hurdles, especially considering we pulled half the group from barely winning t5 after practicing for 3 weeks heavily (there's only so much 2 person can do to help 6 fresh players get past t5) straight into t9. There was even a time where we pushed the t9 practice into 3 hours and we wiped twenty six times and only about 7 of those attempts managed to get to the point of the fight where we can see and learn something new instead of making mistakes during phases we already learned and rendering the attempt moot. Yesterday we got the t9 boss down to 2% HP (gdi). Obviously everyone's heart sunk at that moment but we're going in again on thursday (I so wanted to go again today).

Our group is clearly not hardcore in terms of play time or even experience but even our 'new' members' commitment to learning the fight is no joke and I personally find the 'old' members' persistence (which includes me) to be the key to us getting this far (we couldn't find the right people so we trained with them). Some of us even switched jobs to something that is far from their first choice just to make the group composition right and learned how to use them straight in t9 and geared hard after the sold cap unlock. SO, when I see people complain about not being able to even get the chance to practice even after they put in the 'effort', I have to wonder if it's even close to the effort my group had put into just to get it going.

[Taika]

About the videos, of course it's not the same as actually doing the content yourself, but it does help with learning. What I do for new content (when I'm not going in blind with a premade group) is I watch a video guide and make notes of the most important things such as phase changes and what I need to look out for. For Titan ex and Turn 9 first phase I made and printed a colour coded chart for boss ability rotation, and it was next to my screen until I learned them by heart. Watching a video does not teach you the fight, but it does help you prepare for learning it, as you'll know what to expect.

I find it fun going in blind with no pressure, and will do that for every Coil turn right after beating the previous one. But I will watch videos and study the fights before our groups first actual progression event in that turn.

[SpookyGhost]

Points of no return or, in other words, one-shot mechanics (you know, the ones you can't recover after) is where SE messed up. They're overused and a cheap solution to making fights/content longer. Especially when those happen 5-10 min into the fight, having you repeat a very easy faceroll "intro". These become especially deadly with the servers being as wonky as they are.

While I agree one shot mechanics can be stupid at times, they are definitely not unique to this Final Fantasy. As an easy example, in the boss battle vs Yunalesca in FFX, clearing anyone of zombie before the third phase transition meant they would be instantly killed by Mega Death. This occurs late in the fight, and can result in a complete wipe if too many mistakes are made handling her mechanics in the final phase after someone has died from Mega Death. The main one shot mechanics I don't personally like are ones like Landslides and Divebombs. One completely removes you from the fight without the possibility of being res'd and the other requires everyone to be on point or one person can cause everyone to die. Twisters and Dreadknights are both recoverable as long as a lot of people didn't get killed by them, especially now with the Echo. T6, T8, and T9 are all steps in the right direction.

[Sartori]

There is indeed a certain lack of sympathy for players who don't run content on Day 1. If you don't know how to run something beyond Day 2, it seems like most people are apt to criticize you for being an idiot because they know how to run it and you don't.

Coil especially has been just one big, long, tiresome headache. I have never once cleared Turns 4 or 5. Not for lack of trying, mind. But it seems to me unless you are in a static or raiding FC and you have some form of audio comms, you are destined to fail Coil with a 99% probability. And yet a lot of people say it's the easiest thing in the world in such a way that it feels like they're implying it is my own fault for not having cleared T5 yet.

Welcome to FF XIV, enjoy

[Delsus]

I don't agree with the Youtube culture we have now. For me if you want to watch Youtube videos great but I will never force people to watch them, for me I don't mind wiping, I don't mind things taking longer as long as we see progression, if I am running T5 for example if we have some wipes to conflags, I will explain what is going wrong and how to solve it, if we progress to divebombs I will do the same on wipes etc as long as we are progressing I don't mind, we were all learning at one point.

I have set up T1 learning parties before and we won after a few wipes with a good explanations as to what went wrong, but I joined a T1 farm and we would wipe to ADS twice and everyone would rage quit. When you take the rage quitting into account, you can probably farm faster in learning parties than farming parties.

[Sadana]

OP, I think you're asking a few different questions here.

Bad attitudes and elitism in Coil/EX primals is NOT new. It sucks, it has always sucked, and it will continue to suck. I'm not progressing through endgame because I don't focus on it and TRY to pass it. I've tried a few times, here and there, but without committing to beating up those bosses, I'm not going to actually win. I hope soon to pull together what I'm calling my Turtle Team, a group of people from my very casual FC who would like to beat Coil but have been dragging their feet, and commit to beating the turns. We'll see how far we get.

Making my own endgame 8 man team does a couple things... I don't have to deal with PUGs, I go with friends, and we learn to work together as a team (this is the hardest part after getting them to show up.)

If I was to make a PF, you bet your ass I'd include keywords like "practice", "expect to wipe", as well as "let's have fun!" Many people say there are no people left that will join something like this. I bet there are. Maybe you won't get all 8 at once. But maybe you will meet a couple people here and there who will work with you to succeed on this. Hell, maybe put up a PF for a time in the future, like advertising. Tell your FC, tell your LS. See who's interested.

I don't "do" 8 man content; I focus on 4 man content day one. I love getting in and figuring out strat with my friends before "everyone" calls it "too easy" and expects perfection. I take only those who have more than one role they can cover and expect them to know their jobs. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect competence. Some folks on the OF will say the game doesn't teach jobs well enough, but I call bullshit. If you actually read dialogue, read action info, and run some guildhests, it's all there. Maybe not the perfect rotation, you can learn that from asking friends or researching stuff out of game, but better than, say, spamming Blizzard 2. I don't expect perfect knowledge of dungeon mechanics, we can figure that out as we go, but if a MNK isn't positioning or is wearing tank accessories, I'm gonna roll my eyes and talk privately with them later (assuming they're not a PUG.)

"Hardcore" raiders do what they find fun in the game. This may not include helping anyone. I sincerely hope they keep themselves out of the DF if they are prone to anger and impatience. But you can't expect them to magically be considerate players if you do encounter them in the DF (just like you can't expect everyone to be "good").

TL;DR
1. Attitudes online have a high chance of being nasty. You can't change society. (response to OP)
2. There ARE people out there in the same boat of needing to progress but kinda fearing it at the same time. Be damn stubborn and keep trying to find these people on your server. (response to many comments)
3. FFS, at least know your job (general suggestion to alleviate pulling player aggro)

[Lord_Zlatan]

Wonderful ideas on how to organize with your FC

My FC and I do the same thing. Im in the 2nd tier of progression in my FC as the Raid group is on t12 and the rest of us doing coil are on T7-T8. We have tons of players who still need Relics, people who need EX primals... people who need T5. We do the same thing as you. We make a database, see who needs what. People commit to join and we fill in with people along the way either in house or PF/DF.

I don't mean to be disparaging to people that haven't cleared T5 yet but what it really comes down to is something like this ^^^^^^^. Find people that are able and coordinate with them. The myth that u need a stat for this stuff is false. You need time and coordination with people in the same boat as you.

[MeiUshu]

@Remilia, you didnt answer my question.....what you say is in essence silly. How is the fact to belong to a FC a stated fact that you will eb included into their raiding groups? or even considered for being part of their group?

Dont tell me that FCs do include everyboyd in their raiding groups because THAT is not the case, FCs have their statics one or two, the rest is to them not important, other memebres are *just* numbers.

Dont tell me is not so because I do know is so and you do too unless you live in an imaginary world

@Gardes, there are exceptions but they are rare and I have yet to find it. Most FCs add some things that, once you are inside, is far from true...I commit to myself, and Leanr by myself.

For Videos, watching them has not helped me at all...other then see some things but is not enough images dont speak to me, they dont tell me why is wrong, where and why stuff happens...to be right you need to know why, where and because, once you know you will see that 3/4 of the work is done

Mei