When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

[HakuroDK]

If you join a group thats progressing in coil and tell them "I only want to clear once for the cutscenes, then leave", guess how many will let you in anyways...

Zero. Which is why, when I do run coil, I run it seriously. I usually play Main Tank and in my best party, we've gotten all the way to the Twisters before wiping, so I'm definitely not a bad player. But something always keeps happening constantly and consistently where the party just collapses. I don't even know what the hell happens. But every single time I run T5 or any of the EX Primals, we wipe for some inexplicable reason and it's never my fault because I ask my party if it is my fault and they say it isn't.

I'm just frustrated that everyone who has run stuff with me has said I am a good (or at least competent) tank, and yet I can't even clear T5 or Moogle Mog EX because something always goes wrong.

No, you are making assumptions. Did I say join a hardcore raiding fc?

My FC is fairly casual, but we still do stuff together and help each other through content because that's what friends and good FCs do. Your RP FC doesn't have a few people who would be willing to practice t5 with you for your sake? I'm sure you must have enough people at level 50, and it's not like the ilvl requirements are high. So why won't your friends help you?

Because that's a good FC, with members who don't only think about themselves.

When someone says to join another FC as it pertains to a thread about raiding, usually that means join a raiding FC unless otherwise specified.

You are actually incorrect about the members in my FC. Most of my FC members are not anywhere near high enough ilvl to clear T5 and have zero interest in that kind of progression. There are two, MAYBE three members who are geared enough to run T5 and some don't even have it unlocked. It is not on their list of priorities to achieve a high ilvl at the moment. They RP. That's what they do. And I would not push them to getting geared so they can help me because that would be me imposing myself unto them which is very unfriendly.

...and I resent the insinuation that my FC members only think about themselves. We all care for each other a hell of a lot more than you might think.

[seida]

self-righteous stuff

No, you are making assumptions. Did I say join a hardcore raiding fc?

My FC is fairly casual, but we still do stuff together and help each other through content because that's what friends and good FCs do. Your RP FC doesn't have a few people who would be willing to practice t5 with you for your sake? I'm sure you must have enough people at level 50, and it's not like the ilvl requirements are high. So why won't your friends help you?

Because that's a good FC, with members who don't only think about themselves.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Is the coil even worth it anyway?

[Jessicake]

I personally feel like you get whatever skill level you get when you get a party through DF and if you want everyone up to snuff then you should put up a PF with your standards made clear. That is certainly debatable when it comes to Coil, which is supposed to be the toughest of the endgame content. I think it's ok to leave after a couple of tries if it's clear to you that the party is doomed, but it's never okay to verbally abuse someone ever under any circumstances. It's not suddenly ok because you're playing a video game and someone is bad at it. I see that and I'm like holy hell dude do you talk that way to everyone who mildly inconveniences you?

[alimdia]

The thing is, everytime you wipe, you need to know why it happened, and to a lesser extent who's fault it is, otherwise you will never master the fight and clear fast

[Mikedizzy]

Coil is worth doing if you are up for that type of challenge...if you are not then there is no point.
If you are in a "non-raiding" FC then there is always a choice to be made to accomplish your goals.
Coil can be done easily in PF. It can be done in DF through T4 and that is about it. T5 you have to be work together and would be very hard to do in DF.
I suggest to the other poster to record your gameplay and then watch it back so you can learn what is going wrong...that is the best tool.

[abzoluut]

There is indeed a certain lack of sympathy for players who don't run content on Day 1.

There also is lack of effort by most of these so called day 1 runners. They often have a different approach to the game. This results in discussions and what not, hence this thread.

[abzoluut]

There also is lack of effort by most of these so called day 1 runners. They often have a different approach to the game. This results in discussions and what not, hence this thread.

Lack of effort by the NOT "day one runners".

(Couldn't edit it on my phone >.>)

[ruskie]

The problem in generally boils down to: people that want to raid hardcore, people that don't care for raiding and those that want to do the content but can't commit to a static due to time constraints or have issues finding people through PF to do it.

For the hardcore - I know a few that will be more than willing to help and even wipe alongside you for the full time of the duty if they see things improving - some limit themselves to after a certain phase of the fight but still
For those that don't care - well nobody can help them really

Now for those that actually want to clear content for whatever reason but can't find a group/time constraints - first ask yourself
Do I want this enough to start my own static/LS to have able bodied people to help me with this - LS might be easier since it means you have multiple people that you can pool from and you can still setup times to hel eachother
If yes start running PFs for that content and grab people you see performing well into that LS or static
If no join training PFs or run your own until you understand the fight nearly in full - suplement with guides then join kill groups and ask any PF looking for kill exp people if they take you stating how far you came in the fight - a lot might give you a try or two - and if you don't mess up won't have a problem and might even get an inv to a LS or two based off of that for future needs. Basically get good with your job and good at the fight.

@HakuroDK - you mentioned cliques; sadly yes a lot of FCs are basically focused around one 8 man core static with everyone else there being as pugs or support. There are raid focused FCs that will have multiple raid teams - the problem is there needs to be people willing to organize those teams. I'm lucky enough that we don't treat our FC that way and we are all always excited when we get people that want to go into coil and we will fight with eachother to be able to tag along with them for the fun(also our raid team is not FC based but external - infact half our members are external to our FC). We also have a LS that we operate with some other smaller FCs - and in which we also have some friends that joined some raid FCs quite a time ago - to have a pool of people we can draw upon to help eachother. This seems to have worked out very well - at times we had half hardcore raiders and half casual raiders in the parties that went in an cleared after a few wipes. Though running such a LS can be a struggle because there will always be differences in opinion and not everyone is willing to back down but we have a strict no nonsense policy of removing people that start things.

As for the topic of how to try and explain to people that their are either underperforming on their job or are ohterwise the cause of the issue. This seems to be the biggest hurdle people have in this game. For two reasons:
a) People have issues accepting critisism
b) People have issues giving critisism

Lets look at A first:
We've all seen it, know it and dread it... that one person that when you say something just starts spewing out explitives and in generally acts as the one and only true player. Now this has a few causes behind it as I can see:
1) the person has issues anyway and will react that way no matter what someone says - simple solution replace - sorry to say there are people like that out there and it's best to avoid them - usually can spot them a mile away with comments on how someone is messing up or even starting with explitives

2) the person will go on the defensive because they consider it an attack on themselves - this can be due to badly communicated critique or because they have confidence issues or something else - solution: don't start with player is doing this and this wrong - to start try something like: we might progress further if we do this and that when we reach this point - make it group wide to not single anyone out at first - if the same mistake happens again go ok that was better; player can you please do this and that when we reach that point so we don't mess up again. Basically try to be indirect at start and go more specific if they are not improving - same for giving them tips on their job playing never said you should be doing that but more along the lines: I have a friend playing this job or I play this job and I find that doing this then that works better then that then this. It can work for those with such issues.

3) simply a bad player that thinks he is doing everything correctly - sad but true these exist - they have no clue about rotations, they refuse to adapt or even learn anything - replace if you see this going on


Should be straight forward I think.

Now for B - and this is something each and every one of us needs to look into and sort it out:
1) you start of by going all out on the person failing, verbal abuse and so on - this is just wrong on so many levels - JUST DON'T DO IT - go vent your frustrations at the wall
2) directed critique - this can work with all well but it's good to ask before starting if everyone is ok if you point out their problems in a fight or with their job in the fight - if not everyone is up for it treat those that have not responded in an indirect manner as per point A 2 - basically getting more direct if they keep failing
3) snarky, sarcastic, ironic, etc... comments - unless you are with people you know... refrain from these - not everyone can have the same understanding of the language or see the nuances
4) language issues - all to often we accept that everyone we meet in the game speaks and understands a certain language or even on the same level - this can have potential issues with communicating strategy, critique etc... it can bring a group to a breaking point due to misunderstandings and so on - give it a try and if it seems to be going badly just abandon
5) this is something that starts to happen over time due to wipes and so on - anger, annoyance, rage etc... call a break or just walk away if you start getting that - you've been at it for too long or you had issues before that - go relax and calm down
6) RNG - yes this can have an effect on your group I have seen it happen myself - one person constantly getting fireballs and conflags in t5, one person constantly getting divebombs etc... this all can lead to wipes and so on... examine what went wrong before bursting out... use your brain; was it a player mistake or was it RNG that wiped us badly - TALK AMONGST YOURSELVES about it

Now that A and B I think are mostly covered here's the other big reason for issues in this game and I bet any hardcore raider will be able to confirm this:
Before you start doing something(and this goes for new or not new people in a raid): talk about the strategy - how will you handle certain mechanics(if you know them already) and so on(if this is blind in then run it and see how far you get in then discuss).
Once you start doing something - don't tunnel vision on your job - be aware of what's going on around you and to your party members - be willing and prepared to adapt - don't get stuck on a guide or on only your job.
After a wipe - talk and figure out what went wrong and what needs to be corrected - use your brain - if you have people recording the fight ask them to take a look and examine what they can see - multiple points of view can help.

I hope the above atleast helps some people.

[xnonamex]

Such situation is because there isn't really a medium challenging content. And the jump from your standard fight to coil is really huge. Furthermore it is due to the mechanics of the later coils. There cannot be any messups. The tactics are unforgiving. Furtherore as mentioned before the coil takes the idea that everyone can get in since gear for it can be obtained through running standard dungeons (which everyone can do). The first coil was better when it was the only end game content. People kind of realized that they need to gear up (like get a relic thus beating titan) before they go into coil.