NIN Opener / Rotation

[Tsuya]

The laggier you are, I think the more skillspd helps. Your normal GCD skill activation shouldn't be affected by lag - as such the faster you complete them, the more amount of time you have to complete your mudra, activate it, and continue to reapply your debuffs and DoTs without dropping or clipping them.

I want to discuss with that statement, actually when u think of it, its opposite? laggy mudra with 2.0 cooldown only means you will be clipping your GCD skills more becouse u have less time to cast mudras.

With lets say 2.15 GCD it only means u hit slower but harder (lets put aside dot/buff timers for now) becouse it only means that u have your poins in other stat than SkS, you have that extra .15 when u cast mudras so you have a lil more time for it, thus clipping less of your GCD skills.

Hoever, things get more complicated when u think not about 3 min parse but about whole 11 min fight (most new coils hard enrage is around 11 mins), what is more worth it? having hitting harder to save your GCD clipping and having lil longer cooldown, or putting out (60/2 compared to 60/2.15) 2 skills more every 1 min for totall of 22 skills more during whole fight.

ALSO, slower SkS helps you when u have to switch target, or avoid AoE becouse u have that extra lil time to get back to your target due to longer GCD. No coil is as static as dummy fight so we have to take that into consideration.
486 SkS is a LARGE investment in SkS consuming more than of your extra stats (whats left after caping acc)

Biggest question for me now is is it worth it putting our 486 SkS, right now i have 2.1 and i feel like cooldowns are putting out great for me almost no clipping, and i have no gear to get down to 2.15~ and see how harder i hit to compare parses.

Coz for now i only could test it half naked equipping off all my SkS equip to see if i would clip off dots/buffs but nothing of sort appeared, need longer parses maybe.

Idealy would be to test exact same rotations with same ilvl but one guy with high SkS and other one with high det.

[Ooshima]

I want to discuss with that statement, actually when u think of it, its opposite? laggy mudra with 2.0 cooldown only means you will be clipping your GCD skills more becouse u have less time to cast mudras.

With lets say 2.15 GCD it only means u hit slower but harder (lets put aside dot/buff timers for now) becouse it only means that u have your poins in other stat than SkS, you have that extra .15 when u cast mudras so you have a lil more time for it, thus clipping less of your GCD skills.

Hoever, things get more complicated when u think not about 3 min parse but about whole 11 min fight (most new coils hard enrage is around 11 mins), what is more worth it? having hitting harder to save your GCD clipping and having lil longer cooldown, or putting out (60/2 compared to 60/2.15) 2 skills more every 1 min for totall of 22 skills more during whole fight.

ALSO, slower SkS helps you when u have to switch target, or avoid AoE becouse u have that extra lil time to get back to your target due to longer GCD. No coil is as static as dummy fight so we have to take that into consideration.
486 SkS is a LARGE investment in SkS consuming more than of your extra stats (whats left after caping acc)

Biggest question for me now is is it worth it putting our 486 SkS, right now i have 2.1 and i feel like cooldowns are putting out great for me almost no clipping, and i have no gear to get down to 2.15~ and see how harder i hit to compare parses.

Coz for now i only could test it half naked equipping off all my SkS equip to see if i would clip off dots/buffs but nothing of sort appeared, need longer parses maybe.

Idealy would be to test exact same rotations with same ilvl but one guy with high SkS and other one with high det.

No, laggy mudra means you spend time wasting on GCD and your DoTs and DE debuff ticking off without you either on the Shadow Fang/Dancing Edge chain to keep it running.

I know this first hand because I started off with NIL skill speed and I have to EITHER clip it badly, such as more than 4s or more of Mutilate left, or only refresh it after it has dropped for about 1-2s

I have already provided you the math behind my parse. Higher skillspd means you can rack up time in surplus to spend it on mudras, which you will never complete the signs and activation within a GCD cool down. Every mudra you activate you are going to waste your GCD time. The only way to make up for it is to lower your GCD time so that you can do more weaponskills per min.

What you have said make sense for MNK but not for NIN. MNK doesn't have Mudras, they don't waste time not doing any GCD skills other than the exact same movements in dealing with mechanics which applies to NIN as well.

On the other hand, you can try doing some 20-30runs of 3:30mins parse (which is 3 Huton cycles including your initial activation of Huton), no food no pot no party buff, IL110 weapon with @ IL110 and see if you can break past 480 reliably on dummy without skillspeed.

I can only tell you that when I started playing NIN, I was struggling at 430-440 on dummy without skillspd. At the very night I was in a discussion with a fellow NIN and decided to try out skillspd, I was able to rack it up to 470 on dummy. And with time past and getting used to things and refining the opening, the numbers goes up slightly higher.

Anyways you mentioned about lower skillspd helps in coil, it is not because slower GCD helps in moving around. If you need 3s to move around to targets or dodging you still take that 3s to move around. Ideally you shouldn't spend too much time idling. Higher GCD or lower GCD doesn't affect the downtime you have to face if you have to. What it helps is probably conserve your TP in long fights.

I'm not a full time NIN so I can't comment about FCoB, but I am well aware that one in-game friend of mine, he cleared T13 as a NIN, he doesn't have high skillspeed, and he cleared without a BRD in his team.

[Tsuya]

Anyways you mentioned about lower skillspd helps in coil, it is not because slower GCD helps in moving around. If you need 3s to move around to targets or dodging you still take that 3s to move around. Ideally you shouldn't spend too much time idling. Higher GCD or lower GCD doesn't affect the downtime you have to face if you have to. What it helps is probably conserve your TP in long fights.

I'm not a full time NIN so I can't comment about FCoB, but I am well aware that one in-game friend of mine, he cleared T13 as a NIN, he doesn't have high skillspeed, and he cleared without a BRD in his team

I never said it helps with coil, i merely stated that it could help with some eng dame content like coil.
Yes 3 sec break will always be 3 second break BUT, when u have longer GCD u kidna have more time to get from place to place, lets say adds pop and u drop last hit on boss then quickly muve to add, when ur GCD is 2.0 u have 2 sec to get there without loosing any dps, with 2.5 GCD u have 2.5 sec to get to add withous loosking gcd.

Anyhow diffirence between 2 and 2.15 is slight so i dont think we should get that argument into consideration anyway.

2.0 GCD seem to fit NIN becouse of TA 10 sec buff, REAL question im asking myself is:
Will these 19 extra skills during whole fight (11min) where every disengage from monster only make this number go smaller, will 1 extra skill put inside 10% incresed dmg every 60 sec(TA) (so ussually 11 times for whole fight), will it compensate huge Determination/Crit los due to going almost full of your secondary stats to acc/SS while leaving leftovers to Det/Crit?

.... Higher skillspd means you can rack up time in surplus to spend it on mudras, which you will never complete the signs and activation within a GCD cool down. Every mudra you activate you are going to waste your GCD time. The only way to make up for it is to lower your GCD time so that you can do more weaponskills per min.

Yes, and no how to say it, you kidna look at it from opposite perspective? Idk how to explain
Technicly u right, but u forget that with lower SS you will be clipping your GCD less (due to it bein longer) and ALSO hitting harder, becouse u did put out 50% of your secondary stats to SS but to Det/Crit

So its kidna like bouth ways seems effective, you are right saying that additional SS will help you put out more skills per min but they will hit less, while less SS will make you mudras clip a lil less of GCD (but only a little, diffirence is not that big) but u will hit harder.
So its like fast but lighter or slower but harder. I cant really say wich one is a winner becouse theres just too many options to take into account, lag, boss disengage, switching targets, avoiding aoe and more.

Its not that im neglating your way, im just thinking out loud here becouse so far noone would provide parses from bouth sets, im talking about same person doing same rotations with 2 diffirent sets same ilvl.
SO bouth ways seems good in theory, but my question is wich one is better, unfortunetly i dont have gear to check that, one with SS and anotherone full det/crit.

Once i find some time to farm soldiery (propably this weekend) i try to collect 2 sets of equip and do some runs on dummy to see results.