NIN Opener / Rotation

[Ehayte]

Ooshima, very nice. I'd love to see a video of your opener and sustain rot.

[Ooshima]

dat overall 34% skill crit rate though

guessing that 1685 raiton is with a dex pot. ha wep and i113, on the low end, i barely break 1700 sometimes with bfb/ta/x-pot up, surprising and a bit sad that the poor itemization on HA wep really undermines the WD increase on a per hit basis lol

Pot is used but as per my post, it is the UAT IL110 weapon. I don't have the HA weapon. Item Level is 110.

On a side note I maintain a 2.0GCD via a min of 486 skilll speed, which is what a lot of NINs doesn't maintain and dropping debuffs and DoTs.

I have hit 1700 on a Raiton before with the IL110 weapon, and a 1985 crit Trick Attack too. If I have the HA weapon it would be higher.

[Kanemano]

I'd also like to know your opening burst Ooshima!

[PROBOUND]

I figured i'd post this video here of Firana Magnus' rotation/opener (520 3min). He has a channel on twitch called Wabakabi Snatcher.

I'm not sure if it differs from any of the other rotations posted here so hopefully you guys can pick it apart. Firana has since obtained the i130 Magitek Daggers so his dummy parse will be substantially higher but this was with HA weapon, party buff and no potion apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5lTcltM_Uo

[Ehayte]

Thanks for the post, Pro - be interested to see the itemization on that gear. NIN is the first class that I'm actually considering that on - I have avoided skill speed like the plague for MNK, but it seems like it has a significant impact on DPS to get your GCD to 2.0s

[Casper]

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Point is there is a heavy difference beween the dps posted by Firana and the one posted by Ooshima.

Firana does 520 with party buff (about 3% increased dps), food (about 1.5% dps increase), and HA (3-4% dps increase). That's about 8% increase compared to none of it. When i do my dummy rotation i usually ends up if i don't mess up in the low 470 range, and that's with body, ring and bracelet 120 (but not optimized gear). With 8% more i would reach about 510. With a bit of luck on crits and on mudra's timing, i can see the 520 with full i110 + ha/food/party.

Ooshima showed a parse indicating 518 without HA nor party buff (i assume still food). This is MUCH, MUCH higher than what firana demonstrated, and i have no clue how those numbers are achieved. Thus, i would appreciate, too, full disclosure on those parse: what gear is exactly used ? I use gear that is not BIS, although it shouldn't make much of a difference, but i assume i need to keep 510+ acc; allowing oneself to gimp the accuracy could result in up to 5% dps increase that is "hidden". Using pots could be a difference too. If there are no such explanation, then i would like to understand what is so different in the rotation that explains a 5-6% difference.

It is also possible that it was one very very lucky run. It is only 3 min long after all. The parse shown indicate a crit rate of 34% overall. To achieve such a result would require over 400 additional crit rate, so over 740 crit rate stat. That is not even possible at this point. With full i110 stuff, you can not go higher than ~520 crit rate, which would be slightly less than 20% crit rate. And that is by seriously slacking on the accuracy (sub 450).

Anyway, that means the parse had a crit rate at the very least 14% superior to what it should have been, possibly even more. That is an outlier, not a trend. And 14% increased crit rate would be 7% more damage, explaining the difference with other people that only parse at 460 maximum on the average dummy run.

I just think it's important to be sure what we are talking about. Claiming ninjas can regularly pull out > 500 parse without party nor HA in full i110 is not going to help us in any way.

[treuhavik]

Ooshima's crit rate is obscene and, as Casper pointed out, is an exception - blessed by RNGeesus. We need more parses with 486~ Sksp, not just the 'best of', to determine the 2s GCD's true worth.

When you talk about those numbers @ full i110 with UAT weapon, this is what I imagine the gear being; http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ONQR, which is ridiculous.

[Casper]

Ooshima's crit rate is obscene and, as Casper pointed out, is an exception - blessed by RNGeesus. We need more parses with 486~ Sksp, not just the 'best of', to determine the 2s GCD's true worth.

Thanks.

My guess is, the 2 sec GCD is a convenient myth. 2.15 sec GCD (so a grand total of zero additional SS) means that dancing edge, shadow fang, aeolian edge takes 17.2 sec to execute. That's 0.8 sec of clipping for shadow fang and DE. Should you have to use a jutsu, due to mudra lag, you would most likely end up with about zero clipping / downtime. Anytime you need to use mutilate, you will drop DE and SF for 1.35 to 2 seconds.

2 sec GCD means DE -> SF -> AE takes 16 seconds. total clipping of 2 seconds on DE and SF. With a mutilate, right on time, with a jutsu, a bit more of 1 sec of clipping, with both, a slight downtime.

You can't predict which of the 4 you will get each rotation, it will constantly vary between no delay, mutilate, jutsu, or both. A jutsu will most likely happen in most rotations due to having 20 sec CD, while a mutilate will only happen about half the rotations (and with a jutsu too usually). Let's assume you get a jutus in all cycles, and that you have a mutilate half the cycles, which is not far from the truth. The choice is between, on one hand, having no clipping but a down of 2 sec half the cycles, or on the other hand, having a clipping of 1.2 seconds half the time and a downtime of 0.8 sec the other half. You can not predict when the dots will tick in there too either. The result is likely to be minute and much lesser than just the luck of crits.

IMO, you will not be able to show any meaningful difference between the two with any reasonnable method.

Edit: Note that any gear will anyway have some SS one way or another, so the difference will be even lesser. For SF, the difference between clipping and dropping it will counterbalance anyway. So that leaves us with the DE buff. You are even assuming that you don't have a warrior keeping it up, in which case the point is moot. IF you are maintaining your own DE, then you are going to miss out on 10% of one attack every 2 cycles. That's at worst what ? 40 potency per minute ? that would be 1.5 dps. And that is assuming your ss is as good as crit or det excluding this technicality, which is not a given. No way there is a magic number for ninja's like there is for war. I don't buy it.

[treuhavik]

I see Ooshima also used a DEX pot. Why would you use some consumables or buffs without the others if you're looking for an accurate gauge? Either use a full party, DEX pots and food, or nothing at all, people. You're numbers mean nothing otherwise.

I use nothing on dummies myself because I find it translates well to my in-raid numbers, trading all the buffs for lack of responsibility. I'm happily putting up 460 DPS at i111 (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ONRS) on both dummies and in SCoB.

And, For the sake of the tread title; Huton - wait 5 - B4B & IR on approach - Mutilate, SF, DE.

[Ooshima]

When I use pot to parse, it isn't really about boosting the number, because like people have said, you can boost it further with party buff and food etc. However, the usage of pot here is to practice on timing and clicking, the opener with a pot. Considering that you have to do mudras and dealing with potential latency, your timing must be good to ensure that your Kassatsu'd Raiton lands with all the buffs and debuff on to achieve maximum damage in your opening.

As a matter of fact I did my usual practicing last night - no food, no pot, no party buff yada yada, same gears, same 3:30 for 3 Huton cycle, 500 DPS. I can't recall the crit rate but it should be just borderline 20%. The 518 parse shown earlier are only with DEX pot, nothing else.

There comes the question of the mentioning of 2.0GCD - I mentioned it because I have given this number to some of my fellow FC mates trying out NIN to improve and they do see the improvement. The problem lies in the fact that you cannot simply calculate the time you need based on tooltip. No, just no, because you have to take into account of different latency and response speed. Put it on paper the numbers may seem sound, but when you put it to the server and human respond speed, no. Each Mudra sign is 0.5s so a Raiton should be done in 1.5s, including the activation, should be under a GCD cooldown. But does anyone of you here actually activates a Ninjitsu under a GCD? I don't, I've not seen any Ninjas do, if you are one of them then congrats. I deal with about 70-90ms ping to Tonberry server, maybe if you live in Japan with some less than 20ms ping you might make it or something. Else, I depend on my 2.0GCD to give me the leeway so that I don't drop my DoT and debuff. I started off with crap skill speed and I was doing crap like 440 on dummy.