NIN Opener / Rotation

[Aiurily]

Its not extra its just quicker and puts kassatsu on CD faster so its up faster.

yeah, i understand that. was just talking about this quote in particular.

Huton prepull >(10s is best start , 10s gives you an extra raiton without losing huton for even one second, anymore than 11 s before start and the extra raiton will cause you to lose huton for a bit)

anyway; i think NIN should have at least 2 openers depending on the situation. for example, for a PUG where you have no idea when the tank will pull, your best best is to go for a huton on pull opener. while in something more coordinated, you may want to do 10s or 15s wait to get your TA off faster. depending on when your raid applies their buffed burst hits, it can be good to change your initial TA timing to synergize best with those big hits, on top of being a DPS increase for you ofc

[Cynric]

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It's cause my rotation is very exact in terms of timings. if you start too late in the rotation huton with be at less than 20 seconds once you get to where you can do your second raiton. Less than 20 s on Huton + mudra CD 20s = a loss of huton uptime if you raiton sub 18 seconds or more. You can still raiton and be fine but the later you started after your huton applicated the less time you'll have on it since huton is always ticking.

the later you start a fight after huton the less damage you can do before you have to reapply it.
70-60s Huton (0-10s) You get to start the fight with DoTs full ticks if you start right after huton but starting right after huton you lose sui kass Rai rai when everyones buffs are up.
50s Huton (20s start) have to start with burst combo and early trick Sui @ 50s > Kass Rai Rai(30s) Can't start with DoTs.
40s Huton(30s start) have to throw everything on CD early depending on how fast you do this (sui @40 s etc) you may or may not have enough time to do a double raiton even without DoTs.

[Aiurily]

1 GCD with huton down isn't a big deal, since inputting the mudras and animating the skill before you can use a GCD is a bit more than 2.5s

what affects how much time you have for huton after your 2nd raiton just depends on if you're casting your ninjutsu on CD or not really. if you aren't, any wasted time is ticking against your huton; that's all.

[Cynric]

1 GCD with huton down isn't a big deal, since inputting the mudras and animating the skill before you can use a GCD is a bit more than 2.5s

I never said how big of a deal it was I only said it would be down for a bit if you do this thing. You read too much into it. Also it only takes me barely 2 seconds to do my jutsu so I dunno where this 2.5 is coming from.

Also if Huton is gonna be down for 10 s (from starting too late) you might as well not bother with the extra raiton.

[Aiurily]

you don't need to be so defensive; that was just a simple statement about how letting huton fall off for 1 gcd isn't bad. the only thing you mentioned that might have been related was casting raiton at 18s on huton, which would mean you'd cast huton 2s after it falls off, or about 1 regular gcd, but in no way was it reading too much into your post lol.

and again, the only real reason to have precast huton and wait from 5-20s is to get your next ninjutsu (suiton usually) off earlier. anything past 20s is a dps loss and unheard of, really. saying it's an "extra" raiton without huton falling off is pretty misleading; it's the same basic ninjutsu rotation since day 1. double raiton with kassatsu after suiton, otherwise [huton>suiton>raiton] xN

if you couldn't tell with the various "laggy/slow mudras" threads, the majority of ninjas will not get 3 seals+huton ninjutsu off without clipping into their 2.5s GCD (especially in more laggy instances), which is why it'd be acceptable to have huton fall off for that 1 gcd. if you can do that and feel like it, feel free to make a quick, 5s video proving you have good ping~

[Cynric]

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Sure, hope you like cell phone videos.

By the by I wasn't the one being defensive. You really did read too much into what I said.

An "extra" raiton means you get 2. I also used 18 S as an example for when you start to lose Huton once again you're reading too much into it, 18s and below is when you start losing huton for a GCD yes. That's all I said.

[Ooshima]

isnt that the same as say Shadow Flare have no use in single target battle (assume boss fight)?

Doton : Potency 30, 24s
Shadow Flare: Potency 25, 30s

Because Shadow Flare is for the ACN base class and subsequent job which is pretty much DoT based. SMN/SCH's main attack are just Ruin and Ruin II, which are low potency per hit and thus Shadow Flare and DoTs are their supplements.

Another person have also pointed out that all your Ninjitsus shared a same 20s CD timer. It will be a no brainer that in a Single target situation, Raiton is the highest potency.

Do you have the gear to make a parse with less sks and more det/crit with a comparable ilvl? I get that 2.0s gcd makes the rotation better for dancing edge uptime, yet I'm still not sure if this makes up for the loss of det/crit you have for stacking sks that high, especially regarding sks not having impact on auto attacks and those being such a huge part of melee dps damage.

Yes. Initially my crafted NIN set was without skill speed. There is a lot of Dancing Edge drops and DoTs dropping off because I can't get them to sync up.

Until we found out that the magic number was 2.0GCD, things improved a lot. I mean a lot when I can parse an average of 480 on dummy without food and all other buffs (higher end parses are about 49X) but I only managed about 44X at best (same conditions, no food no buff) before I stacked skill speed into my Arachne gears.

So for me, as a NIN, stack skill speed to about 488, then go for Det, then Crit.

[Alistaire]

Awesome. Except that should be "Are there 3 or more mobs?"

[Cynric]

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Yeah I got quite a lot of help testing last night. Wish I could take video easier , but SKSPD to be @ 2.00- GCD is best indeed. I'd like to add that I feel like when there are times like say we are on dancing edge rotation but Dancing edge will refresh at 4 s or more we can do an ID(yeah I know bear with me) before the Spin as filler to make a bit more use of those extra seconds. But I didn't get to test this enough to see if its worth it before my friend went to sleep. Do you mind testing for me ?

[Craiger]

Awesome. Except that should be "Are there 3 or more mobs?"

There is no Doton in that "guide" for the AoE part... Which is a DPS loss.

Doton does 240 potency, and Koton does just 180. If Kassatsu is up, you should do Koton -> Kassatsu -> Doton. Yes, Doton crits....

Opener:

For the opener I just use the one MrHappy put up some days ago...

Huton(pre-cast so that you can use Mudras again after 2 GCD skills) ->
B4B + IR(Pre-cast right before) -> Spinning(DEX pot) -> Gust(Suiton) -> Dancing(Trick Attack) -> Mutilate(Kassatsu) -> Spinning(Raiton) -> Shadow Fang(Mug) -> Spinning(Jug) etc..

Don't know if it's optimal, but it gives you the highest possible damage output during the Trick Attack. If you don't use a pot, just weave in IR after your first Spinning Edge instead obviously...