NIN Opener / Rotation

[Ephier]

Interesting points and too much for me to wrap my head around right now (at work), but I'm not entirely convinced applying DoTs before buffs given that timing is most appropriate with the whole scope included... hmmmm.

K, I'll show you math why dots first is better.

Mutilate first: 60/300-150-200/240-150-200-260 - 1290 potency
Shadow Fang First: 150-200/240-60/300-150-200-260 - 1270 potency
Dancing Edge first: 150-200-250-165-220/240-66/300 - 1101 potency

Dots first is better.

[Miridori]

By applying DoTs, you delay your burst combo and all your CDs by 3 gcds.
Each rotation has its own advantages and disadvantages. It depends on the timing when tank pulls.
In a coordinate group, it might be prefer that you put out Suiton as soon as you can to help other dps as well.
In term of personal dps, the opener has very little impact on your overall dps. Having your burst out early might be better since the longer you wait, the more likely that you will get interrupt while doing your burst (boss jump away, you get target by mechanics, etc....)

@Ehpier: your math only shows the first 6 gcds. The last rotation is used when you blow all your CDs including Suiton and Kassatsu to have really good burst to start with. The first two rotations might have higher innate potency. However, you will have to reapplying dot with TA and that is when two rotatiosn iron out to be relatively similar in dps.

[Sleigh]

K, I'll show you math why dots first is better.

Mutilate first: 60/300-150-200/240-150-200-260 - 1290 potency
Shadow Fang First: 150-200/240-60/300-150-200-260 - 1270 potency
Dancing Edge first: 150-200-250-165-220/240-66/300 - 1101 potency

Dots first is better.

I haven't looked into it much myself yet and am not taking sides, but your math doesn't apply B4B/IR/TA to the potencies. The argument so far is if unbuffed DoTs first is better, or putting up Dancing first in favor of giving enough time to make your first DoTs ~25% (10% from B4B, 10% from TA, ~5% from IR) stronger a few GCDs later than initially.

At a glance it seems buffing up before DoTs yields more potency but as I said I haven't looked into it enough to even have a valid opinion.

[Ooshima]

This is what i've been doing with pretty good success . Huton prepull >(10s is best start , 10s gives you an extra raiton without losing huton for even one second, anymore than 11 s before start and the extra raiton will cause you to lose huton for a bit) Mutilate > Spin > Shadow > Spin(Blood) > Gust(Internal) > Dancing(Suiton)> Spin(trick)>Shadow(Kassatsu)>Mutilate(Raiton)>Spin(Jugulate)>Gust(Mug)>Aeolian(TA+IR end) > Spin(B4B end) > Gust > Dancing reapply

Can add Xpot/mega pot of dex after first shadow fang for that to be up for the DoT snapshot as well. With this I get a good potency start, all DoT's snapshotted with full buffs (blood,Internal,potion,trick) and you get to have blood +TA+ IR+ DE up for the full Aeolian edge combo + DoTs.

Can I check with IL110 gear and weapon, without food, pot and party buff, how much DPS does this parse in a typical 3-5mins dummy parse.

[Cynric]

Can I check with IL110 gear and weapon, without food, pot and party buff, how much DPS does this parse in a typical 3-5mins dummy parse.

i'll check for you when I can log back in, the sustain parse I was getting with just party buff was 480-490 with a few mistakes in my rotation. I wasn't full 110 when I checked it though had full 110 except my ring was i90 and using the tomestone 110 weapon.

I have to have a friend check the damage with me though since I'm a ps3 player. So I might not get back to you till tomorrow.

[Ooshima]

i'll check for you when I can log back in, the sustain parse I was getting with just party buff was 480-490 with a few mistakes in my rotation. I wasn't full 110 when I checked it though had full 110 except my ring was i90 and using the tomestone 110 weapon.

I have to have a friend check the damage with me though since I'm a ps3 player. So I might not get back to you till tomorrow.

If you are not that far from full IL110 then it doesn't really matter if your secondary stats (determination in particular) makes up for it and you have a party buff (which is 15DEX onwards).

For me I have been practicing a rotation that maintains at 480 without any buffs but requires a skill speed of 488 (I've checked your profile, you have a lower working skill speed) so that my GCD with Huton is 2.0s in order not to drop my Dancing Ede debuff. I'll probably give your rotation a test run to see if there is any improvements. I think theoretically there should be.

But I am trying to avoid the Huton pre-pull thing because it is a risk - you have to ensure that the tank pulls exactly at the time you want, a little troublesome. I may take into account your buff calculations and modify my version.

(Edit: I noticed that you intentionally opened with DoT and you clipped it with half time left with the buffed version).

[Butcherboy]

Question during boss encounters is it wise or should even bother with Doton for extra DoT dmg, or should I just stick with the two from rogue class. I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to fit all this in my load out bar.

[Nexxus]

Just a feeling here but buff before opener seems to be better than buff for the biggest skills damage (if your timing is good with Huton you can deal massive damage at start).
If you keep your buff for amount of seconds to use it with Aeolian/Katon/Trick Attack, its seems to lose in dps overall.
Where using it everytime is ready can make a difference.

And i tend to open with; (buffs) Mutilate > combo: dancing edge > Suiton (gust) > Trick Attack (shadow fang) > Kassatsu (gust) > Raiton (combo Aeolian edge) > Huton (BfB may stand til Raiton and IR prob wear of but Kassatsu is a 100% Critical so it's ok).

Question during boss encounters is it wise or should even bother with Doton for extra DoT dmg

I'd say only if there's 4 or more mobs, for single target it's may be not worth it.

[Ooshima]

Question during boss encounters is it wise or should even bother with Doton for extra DoT dmg, or should I just stick with the two from rogue class. I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to fit all this in my load out bar.

No. Doton have no use in single target battles.

[Shneibel]

No. Doton have no use in single target battles.

isnt that the same as say Shadow Flare have no use in single target battle (assume boss fight)?

Doton : Potency 30, 24s
Shadow Flare: Potency 25, 30s

it is as good as Shadow Flare, I don't know why you say it is not worth it

My opening:

Huton (mandatory)
Blood for Blood
Shadow fang -> Multilate -> Internal Release
Dancing edge (Aeoilian Edge)
(Doton)
Aeoilian Edge (sneak in Suiton & Trick Attack if not use Doton early)