Enhancements to log to support Damage Per Second (DPS) Measuring Tool

[Niwashi]

If a Bard sings Foe Requiem, so the Black Mage is able to get better damage output, should the Bard therefore be kicked for having lower damage than the Black Mage? That's the sort of situation parsers encourage. It disincentivizes making the group better, by placing the focus on being individually better than the rest of your group. Groups that resort to parsers can forget about getting the benefit of any sort of support skills. In fact, they can generally forget about ever being even half-way decent at playing, because their tools are encouraging them to play badly.

If you want to know how your DPS is, just look at how fast the mobs are dying. That's a far more accurate measurement than any number some parser can give you.


As for just adding more detail to the log, I don't think making it work better with parsers would be a good reason for it, and I don't see much other reason for it.

[roninoftagrm]

If you want to know how your DPS is, just look at how fast the mobs are dying. That's a far more accurate measurement than any number some parser can give you.


As for just adding more detail to the log, I don't think making it work better with parsers would be a good reason for it, and I don't see much other reason for it.

you sir have it right, if you kill fast then your doing good, if your killing slow you are likely missing and still just following timers for the combos

[Viridiana]

you sir have it right, if you kill fast then your doing good, if your killing slow you are likely missing and still just following timers for the combos

To quote you: "no, no, and no." Mobs dying quickly only means that the group's combined dps is good. It's entirely possible to have good group dps while one of the players is doing horrible. Mobs dying slowly can also mean any number of things depending on mechanics. Or, yes, it can mean that your DD are bad and need improvements, but what the heck does "missing and still just following timers for the combos" even mean to a BRD or BLM? You're going to want to be able to tell the guy who isn't doing well what he's doing wrong, and you're gonna need more info than "mobs are dying slow whenever you're around."

[roninoftagrm]

even so its meant to be a group effort. If you see for the first time someone using skills in an aion weave fashion, then sure kick em from group, because they think they'll steal the aggro(dps), want to use less tp(less experienced tank), or using macro combos which even i wouldnt use in the higher difficulty runs.

One problem from reading the forums is that i dont see a min/max time to beat/burn/destroy x add/boss/mechanic before wipe/danger zone, which would include links to each rotation reborn thread, presumed dps over x time, and combined dps for each and every part of a boss fight(across say all dps combinations possible), its just "do the guides and done" mentally

and a blm could screw up, its called forgetting to transpose when things go bad and dipping when he/she is stuck in AF and needs mp(it can happen)

[Laraul]

The purpose of the battle log is NOT so it can be parsed by a third party tool! The purpose of a "battle log" is to give a player a chance to review what took place in battle to determine what took place in battle, ongoing or prior! Too bad the way the data is presented makes quickly skimming thru to find the information you find relevant impossible. And the battle log filters are contradictory and basically unusable.

Honestly the problem with the battle log is you NEED a third party parser to make sense of it. The battle log needs a complete overhaul. It should be easy for a human to comprehend first and foremost!

[Viridiana]

here's a thought... maybe they should try reading the tool tips for their actions? maybe they should play more to gain experience? maybe ask questions when there are doubts.

While I agree that those are good starts, they aren't the full story. Some classes have things that are rather unintuitive about their dps if you really break things down into the nitty gritty, and reading tooltips isn't going to be enough. To use a NIN example, if a player messes up their rotation and is about to drop Huton, but has Kassatsu up, at what point does it become worth using Kassatsu to reapply Huton instead of saving it for Raiton? That's something a tooltip isn't going to tell you. To be fair, a parser isn't going to tell you, either, but it's an example of something you can't find just from the tooltips. As for asking questions when there are doubts, that requires that people doubt themselves. Even ignoring the Dunning-Kruger effect, otherwise perfectly competent people can easily miss something that is blatantly obvious. I've had uncountable arguments with people about how dots function in this game even though everything I said about them should be obvious. And that's not even counting the one guy who swore up and down that you can only possibly get, like, 18 tics of Bio in a minute or some such.

The purpose of the battle log is NOT so it can be parsed by a third party tool! The purpose of a "battle log" is to give a player a chance to review what took place in battle to determine what took place in battle, ongoing or prior! Too bad the way the data is presented makes quickly skimming thru to find the information you find relevant impossible. And the battle log filters are contradictory and basically unusable.

Honestly the problem with the battle log is you NEED a third party parser to make sense of it. The battle log needs a complete overhaul. It should be easy for a human to comprehend first and foremost!

There are a good number of problems with the battle log. Let's see if I can count them:

1. You can't display seconds in the time stamps
2. Dot damage is not displayed at all
3. Ground based effects like Flaming Arrow aren't shown at all
4. Contagion isn't shown in the log
5. Enemies with the same name aren't distinguished in the log

I'm sure there are more, but that's what I can think of at the moment.

[NorthernLadMSP]

I would support this, but only on an individual basis. Meaning, after the fight ends, you can check your own individual DPS numbers, but not see anyone else's.

This would promote self awareness, and potentially learning to get better if you see your numbers and know they aren't up to par. But, it would also NOT promote using numbers to exclude people and/or create a toxic environment.

I used to play DCUO, and at the end of every battle, the parties numbers would show up for everyone to see. What this did was create a place where certain jobs were specifically excluded/banned from parties, i.e. "looking for DPS for xxx, no sorcery!"

[roninoftagrm]

I would support this, but only on an individual basis. Meaning, after the fight ends, you can check your own individual DPS numbers, but not see anyone else's.

This would promote self awareness, and potentially learning to get better if you see your numbers and know they aren't up to par. But, it would also NOT promote using numbers to exclude people and/or create a toxic environment.

I used to play DCUO, and at the end of every battle, the parties numbers would show up for everyone to see. What this did was create a place where certain jobs were specifically excluded/banned from parties, i.e. "looking for DPS for xxx, no sorcery!"

no, no, and no, dcuo and other action based games like it are using the arcade ranking system or score system from fps games, we really dont need that

[Viridiana]

I have no idea what that last post is trying to say, aside from the last paragraph. . .

And nothing that you said even contradicts my point. Yes, DPS is meant to be a group effort. If I notice that one member of the group isn't pulling his weight, it's my duty as a member of the group to help him, is it not? How am I supposed to do that if I can't tell what he's doing wrong? Or worse, what if I can tell that *someone* in the group of four needs to improve, but not which of the four? Am I supposed to record our attempts until I can figure out which player needs help? When there's no guarantee that the issue would even present itself to a recording?