Thread: Future of Crafting In 3.0 - Trends and Value

*Caution, long narrative ahead*

So after blowing through about 600k for the new ears, neck, and belt, with perfect melds... Im once again starting to wonder whether there will be some magic gear reset in 3.0...
The new artisan stuff is I60, and at lvl 50, we had 1 star recipes to make I55 gear. So could the same thing happen again? Where the current Artisan 4 star gear becomes the new Patrician's set, and we get another round of class specific equipment, craft-able shortly after hitting 60?

Have the devs said anything about the future of crafting in the expansion? Or will we continue with the current "trend"?
- Get to cap, easy to make baseline class specific items, top end combat gear reliably HQ-able with enough melds.
- New raids added, ilvl increased, no new recipes to compare w/ raid gear (cept occasional 5x IV Overmeld cases)
- New ilvl cap, same gear, new recipes partly rng based, can get ~80% hq rate reliably starting with HQ.
- Another new cap, new gear/food that is completely reliant on RNG to HQ, otherwise it is worse than the old gear, and more combat recipes which don't compete with raid gear. (sans belt w/ 5x IV's)

IDK, to me it seems like SE took people's complaints of "The 2 star items are too easy! Max melds + CP Food + Perfect RNG-Free rotation to HQ is TOO EASY!" And just gradually went more and more overboard.

2 star items materials were found on resources, in decent quantities, and a "master crafter" could have a decent HQ rate starting with NQ. - But that's too easy...

3 star items now require the gatherer to grind out about a week's worth of nodes, with some rng thrown in. Along with additional materials which can only be obtained using tomes. The recipe quality and progress nearly double, while all actions are less effective. So we brought back PbP, though now we MUST start with HQ materials to have a good chance to HQ. Even with HQ materials, the reliable RNG-free rotation is no longer enough, so we all go to Hasty Touch, the 80%x10-11 RNG rotation.
^ Okay... some rng, fine. Needing tome materials for everything, not good. Needing RNG and HQ materials to have a decent shot... bad. This is the origin of the Rumination-Reclaim method.

4 star items. Need desynth drops... Desynth: Grinding on top of rng to not blow it up, on top of rng to get what you want... TERRIBLE.
Also need gathered resources which require more gatherer grinding on top of the previous gatherer grinding. And tome mats. And Daily Quest mats! You can get 6 tokens per day, need 8 to get 1 mat, need 3-6 mats per recipe... "If its not gonna HQ, Reclaim and start over"
And of course, the recipe level is now so high that Ingenuity 1 has no effect, and Ingenuity 2 is barely noticeable. The progress is huge, the quality is huge, yet the durability and our CP are roughly the same. For most 4 star recipes, even an 11 stack Byregot's wont get it to 100%, unless it lands on a Good or Excellent... *I've lost track of how many different times RNG has come into this process now*

So to recap.
2 stars, claimed to be too easy since once you had perfect melds and the perfect rotation, you could HQ every time... IDK. I for one think that if someone went to the trouble of getting perfect stats, and executing a perfect rotation, they SHOULD get the ideal result... But people complained, as people do.

3 stars, significant increase in difficulty from 2 stars, demanding a rotation based on RNG to HQ, sometimes even WITH all HQ mats. So they brought back some of the RNG, but this may have been too much. Something more along the lines of NQ + RNG and HQ + NO RNG would have been more suitable, especially since all tome materials are NQ by default.

4 stars... no... just no... I understand that they want to make... MAKE, people do new content. But cmon! Requiring high lvl desynth on gear that requires 10 HQ 2 star tokens per piece is just painful. To make most 4 star items, you need to desynth Allagan gear, Artisan Spec's, or the Forager's Hat.
Then we do Ixal dailies for 0.75 sealant per day, and put it all together into a purely RNG based smashathon where if you dont get 8-10 stacks and an Excellent just in time for your Great Strides - Byregot's, your best option is to Reclaim, trash the synth, and hope your 90% chance of keeping the materials pulls though.
This is ginding + rng for demi's + rng for hasty + rng for condition + rng for reclaim... why???

At this point crafting has turned into the "Gillionaire's" commodity. The only useful equipment is in the form of top lvl HQ Pentamelded w/ Grade IV's equipment.
To be frank, most people are still buying 2 star foods. Not because 2 star foods are amazing, but because 3 star foods are significantly more difficult to make both crafting and resource wise, for a small increase in stats. And 4 star food... heh... those are selling for some 50-100k apiece, with no buyers, simply due to the excessive difficulty in obtaining the ingredients and making them HQ.
In terms of numbers, Vit on Tank food. 2 star HQ: 19, 3 star HQ: 23, 4 star HQ: 28.
An i110 tank has nearly 8.4k base hp in a group. And while the 4 star does provide ~50% more vit than the 2 star, that 9 vit equates to an extra 131 hp, on top of ~8.7k (w/ 2 star HQ), an increase of 1.5% more hp.
One and a half percent, between the now super easy to make 2 star, and the very difficult to make 4 star... Does something seem out of place here?

Okay, ranting aside, I really do hope that the devs at SE take a look at the effort vs reward of crafting in the latest updates.
The gradual progression of equipment does make sense, though it often feels like it comes in unappetizing lumps, wherein we put in a significant effort to make new equipment which is marginally better, and inevitably does little to aid us with the new recipes.
The bigger concern though, is the massive recipe and ingredients difficulty creep. The recipe requirements and penalties due to level discrepancy are growing MUCH faster than our own stats. So every time a new tier of recipes comes out, we fall further and further behind, going from perfect melds and a good rotation gives us a 90-100% hq, down to perfect melds + food + fc buffs + HQ everything along with rotations heavily based on multi-tiered RNG now giving us a 30-100% chance, depending entirely on RNG.

...Guys... RNG is not fun, nor difficult, it is simply an artificial difficulty, and when we are forced to rely on it, it just gets frustrating.

I hope that in the expansion, there will be a smoother progression of gear upgrades and recipe difficulty.
Something along the lines of a new set of cross-class gear (lets say left side in one patch, right side in the next), along with an increase in recipe difficulty such that when using fully melded, up-to-date gear, along with a sound rotation, the top tier recipes would all be around the same effective difficulty as 3 stars, if not slightly lower to account for many components not being available in an HQ form.

With an additional increase to the availability of materia, crafters, and likely gatherers would have the following progression:
Hit 60 - make class specific, or generic set.
Patch 1 - New tier of recipes, make new left side equipment using "old gear", meld, make new top tier recipes without depending on RNG given mostly HQ materials.
Patch 2 - New tier of recipes, make new right side equipment (using lvl 60's right and patch 1's left), meld, make new recipes without RNG.
Patch 3 - New tier, new right side... etc...

Every patch should bring a little more crafter progression, and a crafter who keeps up with their progression should have no difficulty in making the top tier items. Conversely, a crafter who falls significantly behind will either need to gear up again, or depend solely on an RNG based rotation to compete with crafters who kept up.

- Balance of Effort and Reward -

PS. As far as the value of crafted goods... They are for the most part decent, but the current recipe difficulty and costly materials put them far out of reach for the vast majority of the playerbase.
Granted, Lucrezia used mostly HQ i110 crafted gear with 5x IV melds on pretty much everyone to clear T13... But that would have required several crafters who were already fully geared, along with stockpiles of Oaknots, and TENS OF MILLIONS of gil, or another stockpile of grade IV materia to produce... So the things crafters make does have its uses, but it is just prohibitively difficult to produce.

Just want to add some points in.

-I do agree that if you're using HQ materials when possible, you should have a reasonable shot at making it happen. That's not the case with trying to get master books (I and especially II) where HQ mats contribute less than 10-15% of the overall quality. Although this is specifically for master books and I didn't mind it too much...until you get into 3* and you end up taking in rumination and reclaim just because you couldn't fish out a good/excellent to get higher than a 25% HQ rate. 2* HQing with NQ mats was possible because you essentially had end game gear with melding, and heck, my 3* HQs were literally out of sheer luck (HQing at 2% and 8% when I wasn't even working for quality...)

-I severely dislike how they handled 4* crafting, namely gating it by the really high stat requirements, which necessitate the new offhands, which requires the sealants that are gated by beast tribes. I thought they said a while back they didn't want beast tribes rewarding BiS for crafting (in regards to the ixali smithing gloves), so.... what happened? It doesn't help either that the offhands fall into the same category as 3*, as well as having their possible starting quality severely diluted by the x6 sealants.

-From what I hear though, the nature of making 4* items is no different than 3*... that is to say, RNG and fishing for good/excellent. The problem is, and this is especially the concern for the consumables, is the really high stat requirements. Heck, some of us can't even make full use of the foods because its values are so high. Let's also gate it via desynthesis, which at first was only necessary for the demimateria crafting (mostly for glamour and bonus accessories), now its found its way into master II recipe books.

I agree with you totally on 4-Stars apart from partially this:

The progress is huge, the quality is huge, yet the durability and our CP are roughly the same. For most 4 star recipes, even an 11 stack Byregot's wont get it to 100%, unless it lands on a Good or Excellent... *I've lost track of how many different times RNG has come into this process now*

I actually find 4-star EASIER than 3 star to craft. Had no trouble HQing kirimu leather (5/6 from NQ mats). With HQ mats i got my HQ Kirimu Coat with 7/8 stacks on a Normal BB.

The Master Recipe II Tokens on the other hand can go to hell with their Good / Excellent fishing.

I DO agree tho that there might be a little too much RNG in play and i think it is rather unfair for some recipes have a high amount of materials that can not be HQ.

Originally Posted by seorin

Great post! 100% agreed, especially with this part:


On top of the RNG frustration, the sheer cost of all this has me wondering who it's even for. The forums exploded with outrage regarding housing prices, and that's with small houses being as cheap as 2 million gil. In terms of housing, taking a single class from 3 star ready to 4 star costs me four houses. Re-maxing out all my crafting classes (again) would cost me 30 houses. New i110 gear is selling for a minimum of four houses each piece. If the average player is having trouble buying even one house at the current prices, who exactly is all this stuff being aimed at? Most people don't even have the option of considering whether it's worth the money to them or not because they simply will never have access to that kind of gil to begin with.

Granted, SE does not set the prices for things like Mastercrafts and Sealants, that is all the player's doing, but this example just perfectly puts things into perspective.
Time consuming ingredients + high risk melding + time consuming RNG crafting causes people to feel justified in putting up the end results for huge prices.
And there are ways to address every part of this core issue, but I think there is another aspect that we (and SE) are missing from the economic standpoint.

Lets suppose...
I have A, and I sell A for X.
Then B comes out, and B is better than A, but also more difficult to make (for the sake of argument lets say that somehow A and B use the same components).
So if I can make B, then I should sell B for more than A, so I sell it for Y.
Well in time, people get new equipment, and now B is just as easy to make as A, with the same components... yet nobody is going to lower the price of B...
Later, C comes out, more difficult than B, so I should sell it for more than B, I sell for Z... and so on.

So even IF we had a progression system where you had "gear for making 2 stars", which let you efficiently make 2 stars. Then you would upgrade to "gear for making 3 stars", and made 3 stars, and they used the same ingredients, people would sell 3 stars for more.
"Higher Level Recipe" = Higher Price.
Now throw in the cost of new ingredients, which are harder to get and again result in a Higher Price.
Now add in the need to remeld, and the massive rng and cash investment that remelding entails, that effort results in... a Higher Price.
And the recipe itself is more difficult, because even with the new best gear, you still cannot get the same consistent success rate as you could on "older" recipes when they were new... harder recipe, more effort, more luck required, Higher Price.

It is this combination of effectively every part of the crafting process becoming more difficult and time consuming which is causing these HUGE price increases every time a new tier comes out.
The funny thing is, this is what the "vocal minority" as we call them, asked for!
People said crafting recipes were too easy - stat requirements and progress/quality went up significantly.
People said crafting rotations were too predictable - now you must use 80% HT, and often fish for suitable conditions to use Byregot's.
People said gathered HQ's were useless - Quality shot up so much you almost HAVE TO start with HQ's, now NQ's are useless.
People said fishing was useless - We now need rare fish to craft half our gear! RARE HQ FISH!
People said desynth was useless - Introducing... MASTERCRAFT DEMIMATERIA!
And I guess some people wanted more "interdependence" between the combat, crafting, and gathering classes - We now need items from tomes, dailies, fish, desynth, and gathering to make anything of remote value.

*Sigh*

Individually, most of these things are reasonable.
But together, well, we have this mess. Where a piece of i110 equivalent equipment costs "2 small houses". Where "new" food for 3 hours of raiding for 8 people would cost... erm, 3*2/hr*8*~30k = 1.4 million, or about 2/3 of a small HOUSE to feed your raid FOR ONE NIGHT!!!
~ Seorin, I am really enjoying the Small House analogy, thank you. ~