Myth Message being used to excluded players

[Brill_]

Case 1: Person has not cleared it. This means they have not yet demonstrated the effort to find some way to clear it, be it learning parties, built their own static, etc.
Case 2: Person has cleared it. They may have performed in the fight well enough to clear it at least once. They may have been carried, or maybe not.

Case 1 is black and white. They have not cleared it. Case 2 is grey area, but normally leans into the 'they probably have some idea of what to do'.

Case 1 could have someone that knows the fight, but isn't lucky enough to get in a party with 7 other people that know the fight as well. Statics aren't an option for everyone due to real world obligations.

Case 2 person could have paid for a run, got carried by friends.

Judging a player by whether or not they have a clear is a poor measurement of ones ability.

[Brill_]

I don't care because when I build a farm party, everyone has cleared it 10x+. If you haven't even cleared it once, you don't have the necessary experience on how to recover from mistakes, because those do happen often. Everyone makes mistakes here and there, but the mark of a good farm group is that you can pick up and recover and still clear it almost every attempt.

This is nonsense. Farming parties don't make mistakes. That's why they all say "1 mistake/fail = kick" They expect perfection. Because they are all perfect, there are no mistakes to recover from. Therefore knowing how to recover from mistakes is irrelevant.

[Ellatrix]

Case 1 could have someone that knows the fight, but isn't lucky enough to get in a party with 7 other people that know the fight as well. Statics aren't an option for everyone due to real world obligations.

Case 2 person could have paid for a run, got carried by friends.

Judging a player by whether or not they have a clear is a poor measurement of ones ability.

Someone who has a clear has the ability to get a clear - diligence, friends, or buying a run. Someone who doesn't have a clear has none of those things. That's a pretty good measure. Again, I don't care at all - if you don't have a clear you don't belong in a farm party, period. If someone really wants a win, they will work for it and find a way. Some people have to put in more effort than others.

This is nonsense. Farming parties don't make mistakes. That's why they all say "1 mistake/fail = kick" They expect perfection. Because they are all perfect, there are no mistakes to recover from. Therefore knowing how to recover from mistakes is irrelevant.

I want to think you're being sarcastic, but most likely just bitter.

[Brill_]

Someone who has a clear has the ability to get a clear - diligence, friends, or buying a run. Someone who doesn't have a clear has none of those things. That's a pretty good measure. Again, I don't care at all - if you don't have a clear you don't belong in a farm party, period. If someone really wants a win, they will work for it and find a way. Some people have to put in more effort than others.

Please enlighten me as to how someone who buys a run has the skill for a farm party?

[Amelia_Pond_Behemoth]

Please enlighten me as to how someone who buys a run has the skill for a farm party?

While you're at it, please enlighten me why everyone who has not cleared lack diligence.

[Ruri]

It works the other way for me,when people see the Soldiery message I see alot of 'Yes, YAY" etc. Its true that this message might encourage players to exclude others from doing a dungeon with them, but this same message might also be a incentive for those that want to farm the Soldiery to stay and finish the dungeon with this newcomer.

I love doing old content and seeing the bonus soldiery message. As long as the person isn't a complete moron we usually pull through no problem.

[Ellatrix]

Please enlighten me as to how someone who buys a run has the skill for a farm party?

They at least have the ability to find a way to get a clear that doesn't involve wasting the time of other players via lack of experience.

While you're at it, please enlighten me why everyone who has not cleared lack diligence.

Because you haven't put in enough time to clear it, and still haven't? Or spent the time and energy in a way that was not steady progress? Crying about it on forums isn't a productive method to clear stuff, it's just venting and looking for support for what is ultimately an insufficient amount of effort.

[Neriam]

I do not care at all about partial kill experience. This is binary to me: either you've been in the instance when the boss died or you haven't. If you haven't, you have no place at all in my party, and I have no reason at all to risk the time of the other people in the party if you turn out to be the DRG from the Titan 8-Bit Theater.

Funny because in this case, the DRG actually got his kill and could potentially join a farm party

[NovaUltimatum]

I guess it depends which definition you think works for Farm/Clear/Learning groups?

I happen to agree with the set that was recently put on Reddit:

Farm party: "I have cleared the fight many times and rarely mess it up. We expect to win within a couple of pulls at most".

Clear party: "I have come close to winning or have won a few times, but often still make mistakes. We are willing to spend hours trying for a clear."

Learning party: "I have little to no experience in this fight. We expect to wipe for hours while learning the fight, and don't expect to clear it."

In the end, it's down to the party leader to determine what requirements he wants though, and to make those clear to the PF he's recruiting from.

I wouldn't dare join a farm party until I myself feel comfortable enough with all of the mechanics, which I can prove to myself by having downed it several times (usually with the group that gets the first clear). I would feel greatly embarrassed by trying to come across as though I am farm worthy without having downed it.

[Snugglebutt]

In the end, it's down to the party leader to determine what requirements he wants though, and to make those clear to the PF he's recruiting from.

A party leader should not be using the notification of soldiery bonus equals a kick from a group in the requirements and I have explained why multiple times already. Doing so abuses the feature that was originally intended to promote inclusion into groups and promote running places with people whom have yet to clear content even though they could be more competent and capable of clearing it than those with a clear under their name during a run. The soldiery equals kick is a fallacy excuse based on ignorance as a way to exclude someone from content.

Whatever else they put in their requirements has no baring on this threads topic, using specifically the soldiery notification as a way to exclude people is the problem that this thread is talking about hence the title "Myth (they mean soldiery) Message being used to excluded players". As also said that there are multiple abuses of the notification going on and there is more than just in PF listings, I gave another potential example of an additional abuse where people would or could fish for soldiery bonus parties because of this notification popping up before they even do the run or try to clear it. Asking to be kicked when no notification pops up or forcing others to kick them by purposefully playing bad and causing wipes in order for them to bypass the penalty and search/join another with the bonus.

The initial notification should be removed to stop both forms of abuse while at same time keeping the notification at the end of a run because people cannot abuse the latter one as the dungeon or trial run has to have been completed before they get that latter notification, as such it becomes a nice reward for seeing something through to the end but not the sole purpose of doing or not doing a run and also not being used to exclude people based on ignorance instead of competence or ability. The notification specifically at the start of a run is being abused and it does need to go.