Myth Message being used to excluded players

[Ellatrix]

Why can't you understand that previous does not equal skilled? Which is what people have been arguing in this thread. If you want skilled people for farming, fine. But assessing the skill of a player based on them having the bonus message or not is the worst way to do that.

Because you're catering to an outlier. When you build a PF, you go for the norm. And the norm is, if you've cleared it, you stand a significantly better chance of knowing what to do than if you haven't.

Why do people who don't do raid content keep coming in here saying I'm wrong? Go clear stuff if you're so good and don't need prior experience to do so.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Because you're catering to an outlier. When you build a PF, you go for the norm. And the norm is, if you've cleared it, you stand a significantly better chance of knowing what to do than if you haven't.

Why do people who don't do raid content keep coming in here saying I'm wrong? Go clear stuff if you're so good and don't need prior experience to do so.

I suppose I am rather abnormal. All the same. . . done!

[Ellatrix]

I suppose I am rather abnormal. All the same. . . done!

I'm eagerly awaiting to see you fully decked out in high allagan when your lodestone next updates.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Not a bad idea actually. Instead, during that time I'll be helping my FC get initiated into Coil, learning how to work with my new static (this is entirely separate from my FC), learning Shiva Ex (again, lack of trying immediately, plus constantly being called to heal T6/7), finishing up NIN, capping Poetics, and whatever the hell I feel like doing.

But hey, I'll try to work "getting Senpai to notice me" into that list somehow.

[Ellatrix]

I see no where in your list of things you like to do "farm raid content with pugs". Which is the entire premise for making exclusionary parties to restrict them to people who have already proven the ability to farm.

[Kinseykinz]

I see no where in your list of things you like to do "farm raid content with pugs". Which is the entire premise for making exclusionary parties to restrict them to people who have already proven the ability to farm.

Roiiiight. Because I'm sure you got your fancy:

Just wanted to pull this out. I currently have the only Dreadwyrm weapon on the server that I play on. I totally got carried.

.

by Pugging it on your server.

You are in a static. Which means you play and grow in skill with the same 7 other people each week. Likely, you even spend a lot of your energy grinding said content. That is fine. But all your 'having the first weapon on the server' proves is that collectively, your team is good and works well together. You each might have flaws, and faults...but you all also cover those faults and flaws...like a good team should.

But you're not Pugging this content. And even if you did, even if you were the most skilled player in the group, if the other 7 people couldn't also play to the same level, you likely would fail. And. It. Would. Not. Be. Your. Fault.

So, you keep demeaning and speaking down to 'the non-raiders' like once again, they personally don't have skill, because they either haven't cleared (for reasons you don't know btw) or don't possess weapons you deem 'worthy' enough. But many people who have yet to even enter T6+ let alone T10+ haven't done so, not because they lack the skill, or ability to learn it, but because they lack the solid group of 7 they can work with to achieve the victory. You keep implying their individual skill is what is holding them back, that they are simply bad players. You have no proof of this. All you have is proof that they likely don't have a static and/or time to join one....and likely that they lack the same desire as you to be 'cutting edge'. But again, you don't need to be cutting edge to be good....nor do good players always beat every battle they try. (You think of yourself as skilled yet I bet you could count into the 100's the times you've spent wiping out to things).

Honestly, it's now the how/why you make your PF parties that I find condescending, but rather the reasons you give as justifications to it...or your constant assumptions that 'if you aren't clearing T13 like me, then you have no right to speak'. Your time is NOT any more or less valuable than anyone else's playing this game. You aren't better. You have decided that your goals in game are to be at the cutting edge of content. Great for you. But you didn't do it alone. That shiny weapon you bragged about, it belongs to 7 other people as much as it belongs to you.

Think of it another way: You boss tells you 'Hey Ellatrix, sorry about this but I need you to work overseas in a remote location for 2 months, you'll have to rely on your phone for most communication b/c internet is spotty etc' So you have to step away from the game for 2-3 months. Do you expect your static to wait for you? Do you think your personal playing skill will diminish so greatly over that time that you will be 'unworthy' of your own FC/static, and groups you play with? Likely you'll think of yourself as the same top-tier player...but you would be likely behind in some content. Now, would you then think it fair for people to start saying/implying that you are unskilled at the game because you aren't on the absolute cutting edge of the game's content? I think this would piss you off.

And sure, your crew might catch you back up in no time, and they might even tell your rep 'hey our guy is back so thanks but uh, we'd like him to be in the static again' ....but they also might tell you 'sorry, but we like the new dude, you'll have to find a new group' And if you had to find a new crew, that would ALSO take time, and mean you'd likely need to PF/pug your way through some content....content you might not have cleared, but be plenty skilled and practiced to do. Now, how would you hope a party leader would treat you? As some nooblet, still wet behind the ears, or would you hope that if you were honest with them in your experience/skill they would be honest and fair with you?

All people are trying to say to you is this:

We get that 'No 100 tomes' is a quick, dirty way to say 'have experience' ...the problem is, it doesn't tell you that they can replicate it.

Yes, the '100 tome' bonus means someone has yet to clear, but it doesn't tell you WHY they didn't clear it, or if they possess or lack the skills to clear it w/ you. Of course folk without the confidence, and knowledge of the battle shouldn't be joining a Farm party...but you can simply put 'experienced with entire battle only/if 100 tome please /t me what your exact battle experience is before joining' You likely will get some solid talent this way, fill your party faster, AND be better received on your server.

More specifically, using the 100 tome message as the only measure of skill for a party, is wrong. Because it is possible, and honestly this happens more than it should, for people to get their 'win' without even being alive most of the battle. Or they didn't die, but they also were 'carried' in other ways. (personally were very low DPS/or were OT in a 1-tank battle/or healed 30% of what the other healer did etx) But again, if YOUR only requirement is 'no 100 tome message' then you are letting in these folks, that likely will wipe your group, and NOT letting in others that might actually, perform their role well enough that you walk away with a win on the first group attempt...even though it's their first clear.


Heck, before the tome bonus message came about, the most common Farm Party Message I'd see on my server was 'Farm party, 3 strikes you're out/don't be bad' And to be frank, that seems to be more on point with whom you actually wish to recruit to your group. People who can 1-2 shot it. And be reliable. Really, this is probably still the message you should use when creating farm parties today. Because it gives you access to the folk you really want, allows you some potential 100 tome here or there but also gives you the freedom to exclude people not up to the task.



Finally, you keep wanting to challenge people into beating T9 or even beyond before reset on Tuesday...or to deck out their character in their full High -Allagan.

Why don't you challenge yourself. Why don't you personally, and alone, join a learning/clear party with 7 other people who haven't cleared this SAME content you keep telling others to do. Do this via PF. And with 7 strangers, with different degrees of skill in the battle, win it. Because, I. Bet. You. Can't. Not with 7 strangers....and not re-starting with 5-7 more strangers every single time. But I ALSO bet you won't think 'gee, I must be the one who sucks'.

Heck, even within your own static, there have probably been times when you knew your role of the battle, and could do it flawlessly but there was still that phase or issue other people were having in the group that caused a wipe. And you accepted this, because you understood, that you can't win on your own....and they will get it soon. Also, because you have a connection with these folk, you don't mind spending extra time while they learn. Now, no one expects you to 'farm' with such people....people who don't have it down like you yet. But if you saw a PF group looking for your role, you had mastered on that battle, but not cleared, you'd hope you could join in.

My point: There is just a point when you personally actually know, and learned the battle, and can do your part of it well. But that doesn't mean you'll win, because you have to rely on 7 other people (or at least 5 of them), doing their part at least modestly well too for the win to happen. And these are the people, who likely are ready to join your groups...even w/o the clear achievement.

[Ellatrix]

I simply posted that as a very obvious counter to being accused I got carried to where I am. I could have posted that I'm one of 8 people on the server with a Louisoix minion too, but I'm not sure everyone knows where that's from.

My argument is that if you haven't yet cleared content you shouldn't be joining farm parties. If you want to clear content bad enough, and your group is holding you back, then you have to choose between one or the other. A driven player will find a way to clear.

I spent over 30hrs in 2.0 joining and forming shout parties to challenge T5. Eventually, by networking with other players who did well, I cleared it in a pug. Then I built my own static, with 7 other people who had no clear yet, spent a week training them and then I had a static capable of clearing T5. So no, I don't need your lecture; I've been there before. I never expect more of someone else that I cannot do or have not done myself.

This is why linkshells exist. And why you want to keep networking with players, and playing with a group to progress together. The stuff that takes weeks to learn is where you slap on the 'multiple previous clears only' when you just want to farm. The only reason I bring in the past escapades of people arguing against me is because you don't seem to understand the time investment involved to get to the point where you can reliably farm the harder content in the game, since you have not chosen to challenge it yet. I have no reason to take a gamble on someone when the party will fill in <10min anyway with people meeting my requirements.

I farmed every Coil1 drop, have over 80% of Coil2 drops, and every primal drop (minus some useless Ramuh/Shiva weapons). My experience in farming content far surpasses the sum total of the people who are arguing against me. I've tried different approaches and found what works best in building a party that can reliably kill the thing and get loot - which is the core purpose of a farm party.

If I want to do a thing and there's no relevant PF up, I make my own.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I see no where in your list of things you like to do "farm raid content with pugs". Which is the entire premise for making exclusionary parties to restrict them to people who have already proven the ability to farm.

I should note, generally I don't farm. No real reason. I just don't. I did T5 once and that was because I REALLY wanted that bow. And I got it. Beyond that, I don't actively do it myself, but I'm not above helping someone out. And while yes, it's safe to assume anyone in a farm party has a clear, if they by chance don't, it's not a dealbreaker. The issue is, due to your bad experience you mentioned once, you assume hasn't cleared = isn't capable of clearing = can't farm. Should they try? Perhaps not. Is it impossible? I've proven otherwise, yet that seems not to register, again because to you bonus message = hasn't cleared (true) = can't clear (not necessarily true) = can't farm (unable to be proven based on previous criteria). And I'm not the only one who's noted this. Where perhaps are we not understanding each other?

A driven player will find a way to clear. . .Eventually, by networking with other players who did well, I cleared it in a pug. Then I built my own static, with 7 other people who had no clear yet, spent a week training them and then I had a static capable of clearing T5. So no, I don't need your lecture; I've been there before. I never expect more of someone else that I cannot do or have not done myself. . . This is why linkshells exist. And why you want to keep networking with players, and playing with a group to progress together.

Later EDIT: Bingo. NOW we're on the same page. Many of these people are, in a perspective sense, untested. Just because they say they've cleared it, or haven't but know the fight is still something that's ultimately proven in the heat of battle. Farming aside, shutting the door in their faces purely from the bonus message is only counterproductive. I simply choose to give the benefit of doubt. And again, while your criteria is - from a knowledgeable perspective - unnecessarily high, if that's what gets the job done for you, so be it.

What you've acquired from farming truthfully is still not a measure of how skilled you are, and don't take that personally. Some people get the win dead on the ground, or was the reason the party ALMOST wipes and has to fight hard to recover, and just so happens to get their drop. I've got a humble 12 T5 victories, and only the bow and the BLM weapon I can't use (yet) to show for it. Healer boots and BRD gloves from 6. Nothing to show for 7 at all yet. . . None of that speaks of how well I performed in any of those roles. So while I understand that you're highly capable of farming, supported by the criteria you set for your personal parties, it can't rightly be considered relevant to the topic at hand.

[ZodMel]

What happen is I'll joined a party T7 in PF which doesn't say that it is a farm, I'll tell them I have made it to the last part of the fight, but just haven't gotten clear, and be kicked. If I say nothing they will find out via myth message. I know the fight down pat and my gear is ilv110. There just isn't anyone doing it anymore that will have people who haven't cleared. I quit the game for a few months when Second Coil was introduced, so I didn't get clear when content is new. So it really has nothing to do with me being deceiving or not knowing fight. I just want to clear the dang thing so I can farm it without people kicking me.

*edit* Also the Shiva EX fight has been out for only two weeks and people won't take anyone who hasn't clear anymore on my server which is complete bull...

I laugh at your misfortune.

[ZodMel]

Also I would like to throw this random comment into this thread.

Snacks are good in moderation. Pizza boxes are an excellent source of cheese.
Dragons have sharp pointy teeth. Stay away from them.
Wilfred Brimley has Diabetes. My local college team won the football game last night.
I am awake at 4:50 AM posting on this "entertaining" thread here.

Have fun with this folks.