DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

[Aana]

Again, you are not understanding the actual issue. Also, yes. Missing Impulse Drive is a big deal. That is roughly nine seconds of DPS wasted. Missing Heavy Thrust is about six seconds wasted. I also checked your profile and you are not experienced enough to even understand the problems of Dragoon. You do not have Marauder to 26 and Pugilist to 42, so your crossclass skills aren't even proper. Don't care that you have the HA choker and earrings(not to mention the earrings are subpar on Dragoon), your entire posts here has shown you aren't getting it.

Once again you do not raid.

I dont know what your smoking. Im standing in town on my 50 maurader right now. This is also my alt char I leveled exclusively to get more time and gear playing drg on just so i could play it more frequently, so you can take your assumptions about me, and my experience and stuff it. I have more than enough raid experience to 'qualify' to have an opinion wheather you believe me or not. How many HA weapons do I need to qualify exactly? I have a few. Besides, its irrelivant since you havent refuted the statements so ill spell them out even more plainly.

And explain how loosing <200 pot is equivalent to 9 seconds of DPS? Im serious. Do the math for me and show your work because its simply not true.

What exactly is 'the actual issue' im missing? All i see here is "Drg doesnt do enough single target damage and/or doesnt have enough utility". Landing 1 more HT doesnt do squat about utility and until you can prove with actual #s instead of statements that the occasional missed HT or ID is somehow preventing Drg from keeping up with mnk then as far as im concerned, you are the one who isnt understanding the issue.

Explain to me how the proposed positioning easing in any way buffs party utility, or prove, mathematically that positional easing is a dramatic gain in DPS enough to 'fix' the ST DPS. Or are those not in fact the gripes with drg? What dont i get. Enlighten me, or just be the 20th person to blankly state yet again that i 'dont get it' without being able to articulate what 'it' is.

[Fayto]

I dont know what your smoking. Im standing in town on my 50 maurader right now. This is also my alt char I leveled

I so haven't heard that one before. I know you're lying. Also, it is worth 9 seconds of DPS lost because when you miss the skill, you have to start over from the beginning. It takes 2.5 seconds to use an ability without skill speed reduction. The first skill missed is 2.5 seconds plus another 2.5 seconds to reuse. You then continue to add from there. This is simple math dude. The last bit of your post was already answered multiple times, reread them.

[Aana]

I so haven't heard that one before. I know you're lying. Also, it is worth 9 seconds of DPS lost because when you miss the skill, you have to start over from the beginning. It takes 2.5 seconds to use an ability without skill speed reduction. The first skill missed is 2.5 seconds plus another 2.5 seconds to reuse. You then continue to add from there. This is simple math dude. The last bit of your post was already answered multiple times, reread them.

Sorry, gotta apologize for my War. I got my nexus and gave my HA axe to my retainer, and shes on a venture right now, but I assume claws and cleavers should be proof enough. Take my word on the axe.
http://i.imgur.com/x5wPCTG.pngRawr Str jerbs!
http://i.imgur.com/aI6WspX.pngNot 1 but TWO 50 wars! Man how did i not have mercy stroke after leveling 50 war on 2 chars....thats amazing.
http://i.imgur.com/j29Iqj3.pngDex jerbs seem cool!

Excuse me sir, may i now have an opinion on endgame activities? Or do i need to post a video of my FCOB raid i went on all of 5 hours ago too? Can we talk about drg or do i need to provide a resume with proper credentials so you can stop trying to discredit me instead of talk facts and math.

As for your 'numbers' lets see how a fight generally goes.

Engage Mob!!! RAWR!
0 Seconds: Yay my 1st GCD! HT GOOOO!.....crap....i missed. UGGGGH!
2.5 Seconds: HT ROUND TWO! HOOOOOOO! Yay i hit it!!!!

Net lost time from whiffed GCD: 2.5 seconds. Man my DPS just TANKED! UGH.

1 whiffed GCD means you loose the time it takes to do 1 GCD. How long is a GCD again? Is it 6 seconds? 9 Seconds? /checks tool tip. Nope still only 2.5 seconds. You make the common mistake of adding the time before and after an action. The time before an action is actually tied to the previous one. Thus having an action at zero seconds when you engage otherwise we would be forced to engage>wait 2.5>then do 1st GCD> wait 2.5 then do second. You are creating an extra 2.5 that doesnt exist. The time starts after the action so you dont get to double dip the previous 2.5 and post action 2.5. 1 action is 2.5, never 5.

[Fayto]

Dumb words

No, it is not 2.5. If you miss Impulse Drive, you have to redo the entire skill. That right there is already 6 seconds of lost DPS because you have to recast Impulse Drive. The second Impulse Drive could have been time spent casting Disembowel, so after casting Impulse Drive a second time you then have to cast Disembowel which could be time spent casting Chaos thrust. That right there is 9 seconds of lost DPS because you missed the first part of the combo because you have to recast. You are only counting the time of one Impulse Drive but you did not waste one Impulse Drive, you wasted an entire Chaos Thrust combo.

I know I am using the base recast time and rounding up which is the incorrect way to do it since skillspeed reduces the time, but seeing as how skillspeed sucks for Dragoon I decided to remove it from the equation all together. Not only do you not understand how Dragoon works, you seem to not understand how DPS works either.

Edit: Already discredited yourself with your posts, btw. Also your "alt" gear is bad and you should feel bad.
Edit 2: Dragoon is not Monk, if I mess up Bootshine, I only waste the DPS of that attack. If I mess up on Dragoon, I ruin the entire combo.

[Aana]

No, it is not 2.5. If you miss Impulse Drive, you have to redo the entire skill. That right there is already 6 seconds of lost DPS because you have to recast Impulse Drive. The second Impulse Drive could have been time spent casting Disembowel, so after casting Impulse Drive a second time you then have to cast Disembowel which could be time spent casting Chaos thrust. That right there is 9 seconds of lost DPS because you missed the first part of the combo because you have to recast. You are only counting the time of one Impulse Drive but you did not waste one Impulse Drive, you wasted an entire Chaos Thrust combo.

I know I am using the base recast time and rounding up which is the incorrect way to do it since skillspeed reduces the time, but seeing as how skillspeed sucks for Dragoon I decided to remove it from the equation all together. Not only do you not understand how Dragoon works, you seem to not understand how DPS works either.

Edit: Already discredited yourself with your moronic posts, btw. Also your "alt" gear is bad and you should feel bad.

You dont have to like my gear. Its an alt. My main is boss enough.

You conflate an under 2.5 second skill into a 3 and turn that into 9 and IM bad at math?
0 Seconds: This is the moment you lance hits a monster and you hit the button to do a skill. Agreed? Still with me? OK. So you hit a button at 0 seconds. 1st skill STARTS at 0 seconds? With me?
2.5 seconds: That skill you hit at 0 seconds GCD is now over. Now you can hit another button. Following? 2.5 sec is the moment you hit button #2.
5 seconds: GCD no longer grayed out. Now you can hit Button #3 because the PREVIOUS GCD from #2 is now over allowing you to hit #3.
7.5 seconds: So on and so forth

If you miss one skill you redo 1 skill. EG:
Hit.
0sec HT, 2.5sec TT, 5sec VT, 7.5sec True.

Whiff
0sec HT(Whiff), 2.5sec HT, 5sec TT, 7.5sec VT, 10sec True.

You get DELAYED by 2.5 sec. Everything just gets pushed back the span of a single 2.5 sec. Thats it. If you miss a single ID, then your Dis and CT are both applied: 2.5 seconds later than if you didnt whiff. According to your 9 second rule, im about to finish the 3rd hit of a combo at 10 seconds (see above)after a whiff, and you are still 'redoing' your 1st HT or ID. It doesnt work that way.

Dunno if you guys ever played starcraft or SC2 but this is the same flawed logic crops up with people talking about zerg buliding prices. Drone costs 50, hatch costs 300, replacement drone costs 50=450. You dont count 2 drones to make 1 building. its only 400.

Similarly, you dont count 2 GCD timers to do 1 GCD. 1GCD=/=2GCDs. 1GCD=1GCD. 1GCD=2.5sec(or less with SS obviously)

[Exstal]

Dunno if you guys ever played starcraft or SC2 but this is the same flawed logic crops up with people talking about zerg buliding prices. Drone costs 50, hatch costs 300, replacement drone costs 50=450. You dont count 2 drones to make 1 building. its only 400.

...what. People actually math like that? Somehow 1 drone = 2 drones? This is why people just play Protoss and cannon rush.

[Aana]

...what. People actually math like that? Somehow 1 drone = 2 drones? This is why people just play Protoss and cannon rush.

Sadly people do. There have been giant threads fighting over this since the 90s and still to this day with starcraft 2. And now were getting the same thing in 14. Drones, GCDs, apparently things just spontaniously multiply. Maybe they are just protoss players. After all 1 probe=infinite cannons. Doesnt all math work that way?

Murica edumacation. We iz gewd at maf.

[xnonamex]

You conflate an under 2.5 second skill into a 3 and turn that into 9 and IM bad at math?

Umm... this just shows how bad you are or your rotation is. One missed HT or ID costs a lot. It is just not apply it later. Type of thing. Because an optimal DRG rotations is highly fixed (esp if comparing to other melee classes) since there are quite a lot of timers that need to be managed:
HT, DIS, CHAOS, PHENO, BFB, IR, LS, PS (did i forget any?) so that's 8 timers that need to be aligned to get the max out of the class. Meaning that missing one will result in other timers falling off in the wrong time which results in either replying them in wrong times where you could do some other deeps moves (and in this case our deeps move that makes sense is 3 combo T which takes 7.5 seconds in total to make sense in using it so it also needs to be aligned since PHENO, HT, CHAOS combo will ruin it) or forgetting about them (which would cause you to loose waay more deeps). So if you are saying that you can just try again, means that you are doing that and loosing that deeps and not even realizing it.

I'm not saying DRG is terrible class. I still like to play it and i don't even mind missing stuff once in a while and loosing some deeps on it because as you said - eventually you can learn it some fights how to mitigate that and I don't mind the punishment since as you said everyone has that (let's not go into how mild or severe it is). The bottom line is that MNK and NIN do more deeps ( i think we can all agree to this) and bring more utility (and this).

[Eidolon]

HT, DIS, CHAOS, PHENO, BFB, IR, LS, PS (did i forget any?) so that's 8 timers that need to be aligned to get the max out of the class.[...]So if you are saying that you can just try again, means that you are doing that and loosing that deeps and not even realizing it.

Basically, this is probably one of the worst parts about it. A monk's missed positional is exactly that - a missed positional, and an immediate short-term, minor potency loss. However, a Dragon's miss will delay an entire cycle. At the start of the fight, as Aana suggested, it's not that major - if you miss your first Heavy Thrust, well, go ahead and do it again - it's a very minor loss at that point. ]


However, once Dragoon is in its stride, it needs to maintain perfection of a rotation or else skills will fall off. Ever have a Heavy Thrust run out before using your Full Thrust / Blood for Blooded / Life Surged? It sucks, but unfortunately, you miscalculated the time you had left on Heavy Thrust because the boss had a jump (T9 dalamud) / you missed your heavy thrust 1-2 times (Boss is spinning like a top) / you had to dodge. This doesn't even touch on, as he said, DoT management.

The only real thing I found wierd is the mention of Blood for Blood. Is there really an optimal time to use it mid-rotation? I've never thought about it before, but of all the Dragoon GCD skills, you basically can run Blood for Blood up for 80% of them (At least with my cycle, I tend to.)... So as long as you don't pop it at a Heavy Thrust that's going to lead into an Impulse Drive, it should be up for all your other bread and butter skills.

[Aana]

Such as this:

which strikes me as somewhat disingenuous.

There is no mechanic in this game that prevents flank/rear unless it locks you in place (eg bind in T8), forces a specific movement (eg shriek in T7), or stops you all together (gaols/conflags etc). As for T11, most strats I see have tanks teathered in front obviously, and, lets say tanks are north or 12 oclock, other 2 groups on the flank/rear split around 8 and 4. That places non-tanks essentically on the line of flank/rear which is the exact place mnks and drgs want to be. If your group is forcing you to stand off to the side 90 degrees at 3 or 6 and never move then work with your group. Its doable.

Umm... this just shows how bad you are or your rotation is. One missed HT or ID costs a lot. It is just not apply it later. Type of thing. Because an optimal DRG rotations is highly fixed (esp if comparing to other melee classes) since there are quite a lot of timers that need to be managed:
HT, DIS, CHAOS, PHENO, BFB, IR, LS, PS (did i forget any?) so that's 8 timers that need to be aligned to get the max out of the class.....(etc)

A drg rotation is essentially broken into 3, 20 second blocks before repeating. Each 20 second block is 8 moves. If done perfectly HT is on when you actually re-use HT, Dis is still up when you acutally use your next Dis, you clip CT by 1 GCD all because we stopped using fracture when drg got buffed way back when. This means if you miss HT 1 time, you will only delay by <2.5 sec meaning that the worst thing that happens is HT falls off right before you do your new HT, but is still on for everything else. Same with Dis. 1 whiff actually prevents the 1 tic CT clip. The worst thing that happens is a single GCD (the reapplication of HT or DIS) will not have the effect on the actual HT or DIS, but it will be up for everything else. Unless you miss 2+ in which case it falls off 1 GCD earlier for each whiff and then might start to fall off on your TT or whatever. Again the avg pot per GCD is about 260. Whif=100. with possible loss of either Dis or HT on the next Dis or HT. If its HT you loose 20% of 170. 17. if its Dis you loose 11.11111% of 220. ~25. 260-100+17+25=202. I stand corrected. it isnt under 200 its basically is 200 (unless its the opening one where you have no buffs up in which case its closer to 180). Again, more numbers less 'feeling' about how much it hurts you. You dont like what i say? Provide a better calculation. Dont just blindly parrot "buffs fall off and thats a lot of damage you loose". SHOW me how much damage you loose.

As for the offensive buffs, they get used on cooldown 99% of the time unless you save for a specific burn phase (or not using it during a phase like B4B during AOE damage), or its the opening salvo. Beyond those 2 singular exceptions you should hit them on CD. Whiffing a HT mid fight has zero correlation with holding buffs. Messing up with buffs up always sucks. Ever bunny a kassatsu raiton with B4B up? Man that feels horrible. Just wasted your best CDs for nothing and delayed your GCDs performing it.

I'm not saying DRG is terrible class. I still like to play it and i don't even mind missing stuff once in a while and loosing some deeps on it because as you said - eventually you can learn it some fights how to mitigate that and I don't mind the punishment since as you said everyone has that (let's not go into how mild or severe it is). The bottom line is that MNK and NIN do more deeps ( i think we can all agree to this) and bring more utility (and this).

Again, ill reiterate my stance that the complaint is lack of deeps and/or lack of utility. Im not opposed to a buff to address these issues. I AM opposed to positional easing because (as shown above) it doesnt drastically ramp up drg ST damage, and we all agree it doesnt do squat for utility. 5 Positionals a min are the the only thing drg has regarding gameplay mechanics that take any thought at all and i dont want to see it dumbed down when the removal does NOT address the actual gripes with drg.

Again: Show that positionals easing dramatically buffs Drg ST damage enough to 'fix' it (numbers Prz. Not rhetoric), or that they help utility. Otherwise There is no rational argument that easing positionals addresses the actual gripes about drg. Its just easier for the sake of easier without addressing the problems people have with drg. Everyone has already stated plainly that drg doesnt even do enough dummy damage when you DONT mess up positionals. There is a logical whiff connecting "Drg doesnt do enough damage on dummies when landing positionals vs mnk/nin" to "Drg needs easier positionals because its damage sucks to keep up with mnk/nin". It makes no sense. Buff utility /thunbs up. Buff damage /sure i guess. Nerf positionals..../wtf?