Coil 5 changes needed

[Clavaat]

-snip-

I think the problem here is, PF you have the option of letting everyone know, "Hey this is a learning party, please be patient," or "This is a clear party, know what you're doing." Putting raid content in the DF can cause issues with people who have different goals, as has been seen before in Story Roulette and such. I'm not saying it should never be in regular DF, but for the time being, I think it makes sense to stay where it is at.

Honestly, I pretty much agree with you, but I think the big picture here is to know that people play with different goals in mind, and PF can differentiate that, while DF cannot, and I think that's a big reason why they haven't completely opened it up.

[Snugglebutt]

I think the problem here is, PF you have the option of letting everyone know, "Hey this is a learning party, please be patient," or "This is a clear party, know what you're doing." Putting raid content in the DF can cause issues with people who have different goals, as has been seen before in Story Roulette and such. I'm not saying it should never be in regular DF, but for the time being, I think it makes sense to stay where it is at.

Honestly, I pretty much agree with you, but I think the big picture here is to know that people play with different goals in mind, and PF can differentiate that, while DF cannot, and I think that's a big reason why they haven't completely opened it up.

But if going by that principle in your first paragraph then surely you would be advocating Ex primal's, coils 1-5 and ST should remain out of and be removed from DF or have restrictions put back in place so can only run with full pre-mades. As on every single one you do not know if people are training to complete it or have completed it but does not stop people from completing it even without knowing that quite often.

To be honest if I was looking to make a static I would use DF runs to find people I felt was competent enough to be part of it, your essentially putting more people to the test at once, seeing their capabilities and seeing if get along with them rather than trying out individuals one by one in a PF so in that sense opening up DF without restrictions on 2nd coil would benefit statics bit like how talent scouts go around watching matches to see if anyone they spot is good within a large group of many who might not be so.

As mentioned even with the issue of not knowing whether people using it to train or going for pure kill/clear the same could be said for every single dungeon, raid or trial currently in DF plus the ones I listed above. Sure you don't know if people are using it to get better or if they are good enough to clear it but the same applies for people in PF when first try them out in your group, a item link or achievement etc are not good indicators of a persons ability much like people claiming to know the basics but still have to prove competence in themselves...including people who only cleared because was carried or paid for clear are all still present in PF so are not good indications of their actual ability.

Remember for the most part people who train are training to complete it, their end goal is the same as others in that they do want to down it so it will end in clear if everyone is good enough, but DF is not ideal for farming as once it ends the (non-premade) party disbands so you would still use PF for farming and DF for training to clear or for clearing itself if trained enough...as such there is only one goal regardless of if you want to train or to clear, both will be going for the kill so both groups will be trying to achieve the same thing.

[Clavaat]

-snip-

I said I don't think it should never be part of the regular DF, but it is still too difficult and/or controversial to be a part of it right now. I'm really confused as to what you mean when you say you use DF to find people. What if you find someone you like, and they aren't on your server? You are immediately slowing down your progress into forming a static simply because you could go many runs without ever seeing anyone on your server. You can use PF for the exact same purpose as what you are saying, but without the server limitation. The beauty of PF is that you set the requirements. If they join, and don't meet them, you let them go.

[Snugglebutt]

I said I don't think it should never be part of the regular DF, but it is still too difficult and/or controversial to be a part of it right now. I'm really confused as to what you mean when you say you use DF to find people. What if you find someone you like, and they aren't on your server? You are immediately slowing down your progress into forming a static simply because you could go many runs without ever seeing anyone on your server. You can use PF for the exact same purpose as what you are saying, but without the server limitation. The beauty of PF is that you set the requirements. If they join, and don't meet them, you let them go.

It's easy enough to ask someone who looks good what server they are on and if willing to switch servers in some cases if come across someone really good and they can always say no or inform you they on different server, takes a few seconds to find out.

As for being difficult and controversial right now, its no more difficult than when people first tried to do ST or coils 1-5 in DF in that it was a new set of bosses with new sets of mechanics to learn but people still managed to clear it doing so and as such I do not think a person claiming it is hard for them is adequate an excuse to prevent others from trying to do it. With regards to controversy...the only controversy is people from statics for some odd reason or those blinded by their own ego who do not want others to try a different approach to themselves on old content they have probably already passed.

It does no-one any harm at all to open it up to DF with the restriction removed now that final coil is out, their egos can remain intact knowing they are on their endgame content final coil turns with PF or statics while those on 2nd coil are trying to get passed old content via DF. If people want to try it using DF they may or may not clear it but they would at least have a new way of finding out, those who prefer the old way are not stopped from continuing to use PF and statics.

[Clavaat]

It's easy enough to ask someone who looks good what server they are on and if willing to switch servers in some cases if come across someone really good and they can always say no or inform you they on different server, takes a few seconds to find out.

As for being difficult and controversial right now, its no more difficult than when people first tried to do ST or coils 1-5 in DF in that it was a new set of bosses with new sets of mechanics to learn but people still managed to clear it doing so and as such I do not think a person claiming it is hard for them is adequate an excuse to prevent others from trying to do it.

I'll agree to disagree. On pretty much all of that. Like I said, I generally agree with you on opening it up, however I think you're underestimating this a bit. Best of luck.

[Snugglebutt]

I'll agree to disagree. On pretty much all of that. Like I said, I generally agree with you on opening it up, however I think you're underestimating this a bit. Best of luck.

Fair enough I will agree to disagree but I will just add one thing and that is it just seems to me that your against the idea of opening it up now as opposed to later out of spite or ego in the sense just because you do not think they can do it you do not want to give them the opportunity or chance to even try to prove that they can indeed do so despite your disbelief. It could be that it was not your intention to come across that way...but you are coming across that way to me.

Opening it up now after final coil came out would do nothing to stop you doing it the way you currently do, it would just give others the opportunity to do it a different way on old content in an effort to potentially catch up just like SE has done with a lot of older raid content I mentioned above. I kind of take issue with this mentality of just because you think others cannot do something differently than how you do it, that it should mean they are not allowed to try or even not allowed to try until you decide they might succeed...if everyone in the world thought that way we would still be living in caves bashing each other over the head with rocks and grunting to communicate. We advanced because people did what other people previously thought was not possible.

SE should open it up (2nd coil which is old content now that final coil is out) and let people try doing through DF without full group restriction, yes they may fail but they might also succeed and will not know until they try. I also take issue with SE not doing so with patch 2.4 in the sense they are doing the same thing for potentially the same bad reasoning as yourself. It is one thing to keep a restriction on new content because want to preserve the egos of those who claim to be hardcore but it is another to keep that restriction on old content after new content has been made available for the hardcore to do (their egos intact) just because they do not think people 'can' do it. Fact is will not know if they can unless allow them the chance to try.

[Clavaat]

Fair enough I will agree to disagree but I will just add one thing and that is it just seems to me that your against the idea of opening it up now as opposed to later out of spite or ego in the sense just because you do not think they can do it you do not want to give them the opportunity or chance to even try to prove that they can indeed do so despite your disbelief. It could be that it was not your intention to come across that way...but you are coming across that way to me.

Not my intention. I think the way you prove that you can do it is by practicing with people you know well, that's all. The fights themselves have mechanics that are more unforgiving and difficult to understand fully, especially given that timing of bosses' abilities are very important. I'm not a pro by any stretch of the imagination, but the entirety of T6-9 is much more complex to T5 imo. (ok, maybe not T8 so much, but still)