Lock out is to heavy handed

[Souljacker]

Just because someone disagrees with you that doesn't make them or the community toxic.

I don't base it on disagreement alone. I base it on the past few months of watching things like hunts polarize the community, mercs overrun the servers, and crafters monopolize the markets. I, too, have a rather pleasant microcosm within my Free Company and can often forget the community at large, but the fact that players would rather see other players get punished than a design flaw get fixed is telling.

Let me say that again: a DESIGN flaw caused this to be possible in the first place.

If players were filtered into dungeons randomly when they queue for a random dungeon, there would never have been this situation with tanks and healers fishing for in-progress runs, and this would have never been discussed, at all. I will never agree that a penalty in lieu of correcting a design flaw is the way to go. Only time will tell if SE's gamble pays off or not. So far, it seems to be yet another polarizing issue as evidenced by the fact there are a few threads going on about it.

[Teryaani]

If players were filtered into dungeons randomly when they queue for a random dungeon, there would never have been this situation with tanks and healers fishing for in-progress runs, and this would have never been discussed, at all. I will never agree that a penalty in lieu of correcting a design flaw is the way to go. Only time will tell if SE's gamble pays off or not. So far, it seems to be yet another polarizing issue as evidenced by the fact there are a few threads going on about it.

The random distribution won't fix the issue. A player that has no interest in a dungeon or that dungeon at that stage is going to drop, eat the penalty, and do something else for a half hour having wasted everyone's time in the progress.

If anything you'll have more players with 30 minute lockouts.

[Dwill]

You are so clueless it's not even funny, this system was put in place to counter griefers, people who intentionally withdraw or timeout queues looking to fish in progress, no not everyone who accidentally missed their queue and uses their strikes "deserves" the penalty, stop looking at this with a black and white perspective.

Toxic player.

Yes, because the Duty Finder is totally a mind reader and will know instantly if you were fishing or not

Did you really think that the system could read the intent of the players and make a decision accordingly ? Not that it even matter anyway because by not accepting the queue, you cause the same result as a griefer/fisher. You're also given 3 strikes just to make sure.

You're quick to toss the Toxic word but you don't even seem to grasp what it really means. The funny thing is that coming from you, I'm not even surprised in the slightest.

That's because there is a rather toxic community in XIV that ALWAYS asks to see players punished\excluded from content\just plain uninstall because they didn't do xyz the same way and don't deserve to play. Just because a bunch of people like to see other players suffer doesn't mean it's the correct solution. It's actually rather disappointing that so many would rather punish one another than work together for a fair and intelligent solution. It's even more disappointing that the devs are embracing it.

This community is by far one of the best community out there. The thing is that people like you who call people toxic for disagreeing with you, for crafters actually being crafters and playing the Market Board (Like seriously ?):

and crafters monopolize the markets.

or just doing things that don't affect you in the slightest is what the real problem is. If you think everyone is so toxic, how about you look in the mirror first, you might see the root of the issue.

[NyarukoW]

...no not everyone who accidentally missed their queue and uses their strikes "deserves" the penalty, stop looking at this with a black and white perspective.

You don't accident 3 times in a row over and over day-in and day-out. If you over sample statistical phenomenon, that would be a clear signal admist all the noise out there. It doesn't have to be black and white, but the signal to noise ratio be clear and obvious and bright as day for everyone to see. And in this case that signals means you are accidental troll at best or worst yet an intentional troll for reals. In either case a player like that is the "toxic player" and deserves the penalty.

Also it doesn't matter if by chance or some contrived scenario that players need to withdraw 3 times in a row (with so called legitimate reasons), if you are not going to be able to legitimately dedicate time to the DF, then do NOT use it. That would be common courtesy to the rest of the players out there.

[Alukah]

Yes, because the Duty Finder is totally a mind reader and will know instantly if you were fishing or not

It's not about it being a mind reader, it's what Souljacker already said several times, design flaws, an optimal design is one that tries to deal with the problem affecting the least amount of innocents, the current system is not optimal, the current system can affect many people that aren't griefing.

You're quick to toss the Toxic word but you don't even seem to grasp what it really means. The funny thing is that coming from you, I'm not even surprised in the slightest.

I'm sure you do know what a toxic player means, being one yourself.

Actually since you don't seem to understand that I don't want to talk to you, let's do each other a favor, click on my name and add me to your ignore list, I already did it with you.



Don't bother replying, I won't read it.

[Teryaani]

It's not about it being a mind reader, it's what Souljacker already said several times, design flaws, an optimal design is one that tries to deal with the problem affecting the least amount of innocents, the current system is not optimal, the current system can affect many people that aren't griefing.

I honestly want to hear what this better system is.

You keep looking at this from the point of view of the person withdrawing, I want you to look at it from the point of view of the other people you're impacting. Legitimate to you or not, you have done the behavior that this system is trying to curb, so "innocent" is a bit far of a reach. "Not intentionally griefing" may be a better choice there.

Souljacker's proposed random distribution system will lead to more drops from duty in progress, which for me is way more painful to deal with than a fresh queue coming up, then failing. So that's out for me.

[Taliph]

snip

Uses ad homim attack, and prevents further discussion... This thread is over folks

[RoninDarkchild]

Sounds more like ppl who like to cherry pick Duty Ques are trying to come up with any lame excuse to get a good thing changed. You do not "accidentally" withdraw or miss a que in a single day, THREE TIMES!!!!!!!! That is NO accident. Deal with it. If you do not have the time to dedicate to DF, then do not ruin the enjoyment of everyone else waiting, by using it.

[Giantbane]

I honestly want to hear what this better system is.

You keep looking at this from the point of view of the person withdrawing, I want you to look at it from the point of view of the other people you're impacting. Legitimate to you or not, you have done the behavior that this system is trying to curb, so "innocent" is a bit far of a reach. "Not intentionally griefing" may be a better choice there.

Souljacker's proposed random distribution system will lead to more drops from duty in progress, which for me is way more painful to deal with than a fresh queue coming up, then failing. So that's out for me.

Just some thoughts:

The best solution is if a person withdraws from a queue, the queue does not break up the whole group and instead finds a replacement for those who timed out. Those who clicked "confirm" would not have to click it again, they would just stay with the confirmation window up. The game would only break up an existing group of people who already clicked "confirm" if it could not find an immediate replacement. Anyone who withdrew would store a list of groups they recently withdrew from and that person would not be added back into any of those same groups.

But that's more work, so it's better to identify where this was a problem. The only places I saw this were CT/ST, expert, and low level. A common theme between all 3 are that the rewards are heavily stacked at the end of the dungeon, this causes people to fish for in progress in those particular dungeons. There are a number of ways to deal with this sort of thing. One option is to just give them what they want and get them away from everyone else by adding in progress only. This way all the in progress fishers will be removed from your queues forever and will never effect you. There is concern that this would add to the queue times because all the tanks or healers would only queue for in progress. But if all the tanks and healers queue for in progress, then they're going to have to wait a long time because there's only so many in progress dungeons that will be available. They might as well just do the dungeon normally since it will be faster as they already have near instant queues. You'll also probably get more people participating due to the in progress option. Some people won't do certain content at all because the rewards are not worth the time invested (low level comes to mind), but you will likely get more tanks and healers looking for "easy" queues which will increase competition. The result is likely a negligible effect on queues in exchange for a flexible system that lets people do what they want.

You could also obscure the in progress value in the same way that CT/ST does by only displaying 0/1 no matter what the actual progress is. A problem that exists is it can be difficult to fill 0/3 in progress dungeons. You're risking joining in progress on a likely dysfunctional group that hasn't made any progress. Those fishing for in progress are looking for 2/3 or 1/3, this would prevent allowing the in progress fishers from being able to fish for those specific dungeons. This prevents that while helping 0/3 groups that need some help. If in progress only was added, I think this should also be added.

Or you could just not display the fact that a dungeon is in progress at all. Although, I would caution against this. Sometimes people will ask their FC/linkshell for help with an in progress dungeon. It's nice to be able to identify that the queue that pops up is actually in progress so you can help those who you want to help. I know some want to be able to invite friends directly to help in progress runs, but I think that's ripe for abuse (voting out your current dungeon group members because you want to invite your friends). So it's nice to have some way to link those who need help with those who want to help without the direct invite option, and I think this accomplishes that.

Even with the above you can still have people trolling the queue because they have nothing better to do. But a shorter withdraw penalty (5-15min) with a shorter reset period (1-3 hrs) would curb most trollish behavior. For the most dedicated trolls it should be easy for SE to identify people who are *constantly* withdrawing and have a GM check their behavior to put them in timeout. This is also a good idea even if you add some way of directly curbing the practice of fishing.

And lets face it, the primary offender here was CT/ST. While other categories can be subject to in progress fishing, the number of people in CT/ST can mean that players even withdrawing for "legitimate" reasons can cause a number of resets for some people. So it would be better to limit the existing 3/day > 30min penalty to just CT/ST to specifically target *that* problem. Someone who got a strike from going to the bathroom during a particularly lengthy guildhest queue (where the queue estimates are often innacurate) doesn't deserve the strike as much as someone who withdraws from an ST queue after a 30sec wait. The system and its punishments should reflect that, it currently doesn't.

Or just break up the penalty enforcement by category. Trials, 24 man raids, pvp, low/high/expert dungeons, that sort of thing. Again, it was particular categories that were problematic. Withdrawing from ST 3x within a day causes you to be locked out of ST/CT for 30min.

Finally, even WITH the current system, the group penalty should only be inflicted on the individual who withdraws. Group trolling is a made up issue. Punishing people to prevent a problem that doesn't exist is stupid. Ready checks only work when the queue starts. Sure everything works fine if the queue is instant after the ready check, but that's not always the case (had to wait 15min to help out someone do Ramuh HM for story with a partial group that had 2 tanks, for instance). Being punished for the mistakes of others is a bad idea that's only going to lead to more animosity between players and this game does NOT need that.

[IfritReborn]

Sounds more like ppl who like to cherry pick Duty Ques are trying to come up with any lame excuse to get a good thing changed. You do not "accidentally" withdraw or miss a que in a single day, THREE TIMES!!!!!!!! That is NO accident. Deal with it. If you do not have the time to dedicate to DF, then do not ruin the enjoyment of everyone else waiting, by using it.

Except that there are major flaws. If someone joined a PF group with an individual who had already withdrew 2 times, and that party leader withdraws again, the innocent (who has no clue on the history of the party leader) is now locked out of DF.

That is not good design. AT ALL!