Dragoons feeling left out?

[beowulf81]

Let me answer this for you:

Dragoon is viable as I have cleared both 10 and 11, and most likely 12(maybe even 13 :P) with my Dragoon. T10 becomes trivial as soon as you get the tether + heat, tether+ charge or charge + heat, down. T11 is somewhat easy as well and only gets hectic during the last phase. It's also gonna need a little getting used to do your positionals when you are tethered but other than that, it's manageable.

Thank you for your response Orlandeu, it is very much appreciated. I wish you well in your efforts to take down T13!!

[myahele]

Yeah, I agree with the above. I'll leave DRG in favor of my MNK or soon to be NIN as melee of choice. DRGs simply doesn't have that much utility in game

[Gardes]

DRAGON slayers that can't take a FIRE BALL...

[Hyrist]

DRAGON slayers that can't take a FIRE BALL...

Cause, you know, the best way to fight a dragon is to take its breath to the face.... *snicker*

[Amador]

Final Fantasy at this point is a game dissected by players. The main points, are that the job is fundamentally weaker and brings less to the party than other jobs of the same role.

This idea is fueled by the new content currently released, and previous content.

Also, the main reason why certain jobs received a buff was because the community was able to see unbiased that there was an issue. When there is separation in opinion regarding the matter due to padded ego, or fear that you'll be viewed weaker based on your chosen class. Then... it causes developers to shrug off the opinion of the few, because what they see is mixed opinions rather than a player outcry of lack of balance or neglect to a specific aspect of the game.

I understand full well that this level of "difficulty" if you will, will make you; can make you a better player. However, the point and intent is not to acknowledge that you yourself are weak, or that your class is inferior but rather that the job could be better, and be applied better as other jobs that are more coveted because of their overall utility, and benefit than simply playing "your favorite class".

I tend to play what will help my group out the most, I typically choose tank or mage class types... in XI however, I was a die-hard-knew-it-sucked-dragoon-pride-4-lyfe know it all; but i still played the jobs that would benefit my linkshell the most given the event.

So all in all...

If you believe the Dragoon job is fine as is, rather than state that your static has conformed to accept that it's your job, (#nodisrespect) and that you're a bad ass at it, with potentially much deserved praise as it maybe. Please provide examples of when your job excelled against another.

Pro's and Con's are always applicable and necessary, but they must be unbiased. Not a ground rule, but it's what would be the most acceptable, not by the player base, but by the developers who are tasked with reviewing the forums for concerns, and note worthy ideas.

[Hyrist]

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to credit that response, though well worded, with the 'evidence' that is requested of me.

Because doing so betrays the fundamental concept of what makes a video game a valid pastime: enjoyment, which is entirely subjective.



If I was contesting something objective, like Dragoon meets or beats a direct DPS or Utility comparison, you would have grounds to call for a specific, substantive example. However, that is not my argument. My argument is that the anti-dragoon sentiment is not universally pervasive within the game itself, and remains an argument primarily held on the forms in achadamia.

What I call into question is the idea the accusation Dragoon is no longer a viable pick, the Onus is on the players making such accusations to show a pass/fail situation of equal gear in which a Dragoon Fails where a Ninja or Monk does not.

None has been provided. The argument is being made, strictly in academia, that because of higher parses or utilities on these other classes, that Dragoons should abandon their class on virtue of 'not providing the best for the party'. At that point, the human element is neglected in favor of on-paper numbers that may not even be produced by the player in question.

Which is often neglected in such dissemination performance will often not be viable in the long term compared to inter-personal synergy. For the vast majority players: A group that gets along will have far more staying power then a group that forces its players to shift to what the 'group' demands. And interest is most often kept in players who feel content in the classes they are playing. The sentiments of the minority hardcore crowd do not factor in these practicalities of the larger base - partly because matters like these are perceptively where the mainstream and hardcore players differ substantially in opinion and playstyle.

If a player decides, purely on their own volition, to leave Dragoon to play another class they will enjoy more - I applaud them. If they abandon a class purely for performance reasons - I do hope they are not the kind of player who is attached to any one particular class or role, because such matters in an MMO are highly fluid.

Furthermore, a player who attempts to pressure another to divert from their chosen class simply because the others are flavor of the patch should be admonished. There is not a single class in this game that results in a pass/fail purely due to the differences in native performances of the class. It is on those who wish to assert otherwise to prove such, objectively.

[Krr]

I'm just going to note that, while skill floor and ceiling is always relevant in discussions like this, when people like me say "The DRG does less DPS than the MNK or NIN by a substantial margin," what I'm speaking of specifically is the theoretical maximum DPS each job can do. That is to say, an imaginary perfect Dragoon clocks in at 15-20% lower DPS than an imaginary perfect Monk in just about any simulation. Furthermore, the real-world imperfect MNK loses less from executional failure than the real-world imperfect DRG with the very rare exception of relevant endgame encounters where the MNK has any serious risk of losing Greased Lightning. (Conversely, a lot of reports note that it is much easier for a DRG to lose heavy thrust and DB in these high-end battles, due to how the dangerous avoidable effects in each one are positioned.)

This is bad because it means no matter how hard you work as a DRG, you're just...always going to clock worse than a MNK of the same skill level, unless the party is doing really specific and cumbersome to maintain compositional set-ups.

DRGs don't have anything substantial to justify both their DPS floor and DPS ceiling being lower than both MNK and NIN.

Ultimately, this doesn't affect the 'average' player, who even at the top of his or her or their skill level mostly runs 4-man dungeons, older iterations of Coil, and 24-mans like ST. But the game should be balanced around what occurs at the top level of play, and this will result in almost nothing but a net improvement for players at the middle- and lower-levels of play.

Edit Addendum: It's worth noting that in the past, DRGs were considered relevant to mid- and high-tier encounters in spite of a higher skill barrier and lower DPS ceiling because raiding included encounters where MNKs were frequently at risk of losing Greased Lightning, such as Extreme Primals like Leviathan, Titan, and Garuda who frequently became untargetable or moved to difficult to hit positions, which justified being a DRG due to a lower 'ramp time' to achieve all their effects needed to hit peak DPS while even the best MNKs fought a constant struggle to maintain 3x GL.

That's not really the case any more, as basically every relevant endgame encounter is a Coil fight, and Coil fights traditionally feature bosses or adds that you can be, and are expected to be, basically always attacking, with very rare exceptions.

[Zumi]

There exists a balance issue in the game. In that everything a DRG does a MNK or NIN can do better and have better group utility. It isn't a huge difference and you still can do final coil with drgs, but if you have the option you would before the other 2 melee jobs over DRG. So yes the game does need some balancing.

[beowulf81]

I don't mean to be rude Hyrist, but what on earth are you babbling about?

Your initial response to amdapor included this line:

I maintain the fact that I fundamentally disagree that the class is broken in any way that prevents its effectiveness or participation in endgame events.

That fundamental disagreement must be based upon something objective, since you are speaking of effectiveness in endgame. That would include examples of when your job excelled against another. Which Amdapor requested, and he is well within rights to do so. It is logical to request such evidence when you 'fundamentally disagree with the assertion that the class is broken in such a way that prevents effectiveness or participation in endgame events'.

If you refuse to back that statement up then it is worthless. Why waste your time and ours by posting it?

[Amador]

Beowulf81, as a XIV player... I can understand why my name would appear to be Amdapor. That made me chuckle.

Hyrist, I enjoyed reading your post. Very eloquently put, and an appreciated read. I respect your stance on not wanting to provide the requested. Though I am a bit, saddened by it; I understand that a player's skill can be a great influence in judgement in regards to a class. I am by no means intended to bash the job, or dethrone it from whichever throne it resides on.

Human aspect of the game, interaction, and entertainment are indeed important. A game must remain a game after all, however the game is based on equations, time, and patience. Some which few understand, do not have time for, and or lack the patience to accept them. My interest isn't to persuade a player to leave a job, I hope that is not what I am portraying. I am rather interested in aspects at which the job shines in.

Again, not to dethrone it but to better emphasis the use of it given such a situation. I'd like for the job to be more relevant to others, and to me as well. It's a job I have followed for many years, but as many... I am disheartened by it.

"So go play something else", some might say; however I do want to play Dragoon in nearly everything that I can but I'd like to do so in an enjoyable manner, rather than a frustrating, hair yanking, controller throwing fashion. It's a nice feeling to be able to play a job that is both #boss and #op. A job people look up to and think that's a good job! Just like people do so for monk.

While player skill should still definitely take into account, and reward the seasoned adventurer. It should not feel like you're pushing a boulder up hill when you're playing a game to enjoy your pass time.