The cycle of disbanding that keep casuals from doing content

[AlexionSkylark]

all raiders are the same rude, obnoxious people.

Maybe not ALL of them, but the vast majority... well... they are.

[DoctorPepper]

The only generalization I've seen is that raiders are unhelpful and exclusory. Which is true. Open up your local PF and get a wake-up call as to what "Raiding" is like outside of your small FC group.

Maybe not ALL of them, but the vast majority... well... they are.

These are the types of generalizations I'm talking about. Just because you guys don't see experienced raiders joining/making learning groups shouldn't flag them as unhelpful, exclusory, rude, or obnoxious. While I'll admit there are a lot of rude raiders, there are also a lot of rude non-raiders. There are also a lot of players in this game that try to leech content off of other players without learning it themselves. I've joined a lot party finder groups where people claim to be experienced (sometimes even the party leader) only to find out they have no idea what they are doing and just want the other people to carry them through it. Often it doesn't really bother me but I can understand why that would bother other people, some people only have a limited amount of time to play and want to spend their time experiencing things they haven't done yet. That doesn't give them any good reason to be rude however.

That being said, the best place to find help really is an FC. My FC has helped numerous people clear turn 5, extreme primals, etc. but we really don't go out of our way to help people we don't know who we will likely never speak to again. Most of the time, in my opinion, friends/FC are a lot more grateful for your help than the random people using party finder, it's like being in a family. Most of the time you get the kill in a party finder group and then never see/hear from those people again.

The fact is, neither of you know enough raiders to make the claim that all or even the majority of them are bad people. Your entire generalization is based off of the party finder and random people in DF groups which is only a small fraction of the people who play this game.

[Krr]

The fact is, neither of you know enough raiders to make the claim that all or even the majority of them are bad people. Your entire generalization is based off of the party finder and random people in DF groups which is only a small fraction of the people who play this game.

Except I have personal experience (over 3-4 years) with people who identify themselves as 'HC Raiders', personal experience in this game looking for FCs and statics before finally founding my own group, and personal experience reading and hearing what my friends who still do HC-level raiding have to say about the scene. There are problems with how we organize raids, problems with what we demand to see in our games ('to help promote the health of raiding'), and there are problems with the mindset with which we approach pick-up players.

Does that make a statement on every single raider as an individual? Hell naw. But it makes a statement on the social norms that at this point, are pretty much baked into raiding, which become an issue when the majority of players who reach 50 only have HC raiding as their main skill-based activity.

[DoctorPepper]

Except I have personal experience (over 3-4 years) with people who identify themselves as 'HC Raiders', personal experience in this game looking for FCs and statics before finally founding my own group, and personal experience reading and hearing what my friends who still do HC-level raiding have to say about the scene. There are problems with how we organize raids, problems with what we demand to see in our games ('to help promote the health of raiding'), and there are problems with the mindset with which we approach pick-up players.

Does that make a statement on every single raider as an individual? Hell naw. But it makes a statement on the social norms that at this point, are pretty much baked into raiding, which become an issue when the majority of players who reach 50 only have HC raiding as their main skill-based activity.

I can't really speak for your personal experience, I'm just saying that generalizations are typically wrong. People who have bad experiences are typically influenced/affected by those experiences more than when they have good experiences and are therefore more vocal about them. Look at the media for example, there's a reason the news is all about the bad things, it's because nobody really seems to care about the good things going on. Happy people are quiet people in most cases.

It's unfortunate that you had some bad experiences but the fact remains that this game has an average of about 50000-100000 players per server and I doubt you've met even 0.05% of the ones on yours. Generalizations are typically based on little to no evidence, a handful of bad people doesn't make everybody bad.

Going back to your original question, why is it wrong to hate raiders. It's wrong for the same reasons that it's wrong to hate casuals. I've met plenty of casual players who are total assholes but I'm not going to blackball all the casuals I don't even know because of it.

[Dwill]

Except I have personal experience (over 3-4 years) with people who identify themselves as 'HC Raiders', personal experience in this game looking for FCs and statics before finally founding my own group, and personal experience reading and hearing what my friends who still do HC-level raiding have to say about the scene. There are problems with how we organize raids, problems with what we demand to see in our games ('to help promote the health of raiding'), and there are problems with the mindset with which we approach pick-up players.

Does that make a statement on every single raider as an individual? Hell naw. But it makes a statement on the social norms that at this point, are pretty much baked into raiding, which become an issue when the majority of players who reach 50 only have HC raiding as their main skill-based activity.

And I have experience over 14-15 years of MMO that is literally the contrary of yours. Funny how that works.