Break the Trinity System Please

[Delily]

^contextually we're talking about sticking to the design in the form of DPS-Support Hybrids like Bard... it wouldn't disrupt the game's core design/structure much at all. And I'm saying balance is a must.
Just because you have a Bard-alike that applies party-buffs in a manner that's less passive & global doesn't mean you're breaking the game if balance is kept in mind which I'm arguing is possible.

Making a Job who's focus is less on enemy mobs spamming it's attacks can be implemented properly without breaking the game.

I feel like you need to go back 5 or so pages & read through much more carefully, the context seems to keep flying over your head.

As a note, the topic of conversation switched from breaking the Trinity to diversifying it a while ago.

The context does not go over my head. I am fully aware you had 2 proposals, a full on Support role, and hybrids. I am against the addition of a new support role, primarily because it adds unneeded complexity to. I don't disagree with more dps/support roles, as I suspect we'l see more of that. However, I think a better solution is to strengthen the existing design of spreading buffs, debuffs, and CC around ALL classes, and building encounters that aren't movement based DPS races.

Can I just say as a retired bleeding edge world first raiding enchanter from EQ, that the situational usefulness was what made it so effing amazing! Some raids, I just buffed and tried to throw in my damage (which was a bit subpar, but my buffs made up for it)... and some raids, crowd control was a critical aspect of the encounter and I and my ENC comrads shined like the sun.

The difference between a good and not so good ENC was HUGE and obvious. You were CCing mobs that would destroy you in one hit and then wipe your raid. That game had something that this game didn't- variety in encounter mechanics that were based on class based skills -and- encounter mechanics that utilized support class skills. That game let everyone shine at some point... it wasn't a keyboard mashing jumprope mess.

You had pulling teams, you had tanks, you had healer teams, you had CC teams. You even had some dps teams (casters/melee). Everyone here is the same- just mashing their buttons while the entire group "jumps"!! at the same time.

The only reason the design team can't do that currently is they can't rely on a certain class's skill to be present. Part of solving that is strengthening the existing design.

[ApolloGenX]

The only reason the design team can't do that currently is they can't rely on a certain class's skill to be present. Part of solving that is strengthening the existing design.

Why not? If two support roles branch off a single class, then there's no reason they can't. That would be requiring one of two jobs to be present. They do that with tanks and healers already. They can even have you choose which job, by making them use different stats, so you can't be both - forcing a choice like tanks and healers make (actually more of one, since you can't be both... but can be both tank or healer jobs)

[Delily]

Why not? If two support roles branch off a single class, then there's no reason they can't. That would be requiring one of two jobs to be present. They do that with tanks and healers already. They can even have you choose which job, by making them use different stats, so you can't be both - forcing a choice like tanks and healers make (actually more of one, since you can't be both... but can be both tank or healer jobs)

They do what with tanks and healers? The only job that can change it's role is the arcanist, and I read that's not a model they want to continue in the future because of gearing issues (since summoners and scholars share stats, but serve 2 different roles). Although, your post does make me think a better solution is to open up more cross class skills. Since I main arcanist, I'd could see giving repose to scholars and sleep to summoners a way to ensure that skill is present. However, I think it's possible to do that with other classes.

[ApolloGenX]

They do what with tanks and healers? The only job that can change it's role is the arcanist, and I read that's not a model they want to continue in the future because of gearing issues (since summoners and scholars share stats, but serve 2 different roles). Although, your post does make me think a better solution is to open up more cross class skills. Since I main arcanist, I'd could see giving repose to scholars and sleep to summoners a way to ensure that skill is present. However, I think it's possible to do that with other classes.

I can't remember but I think the whm job was unlocked with cnj/acn.... and the sch job was acn/conj... right? So don't all fights require both of those classes?

[Delily]

I can't remember but I think the whm job was unlocked with cnj/acn.... and the sch job was acn/conj... right? So don't all fights require both of those classes?

As far as I know, the current encounters require a healer, with either job working just fine. That's similar to how the tanks and damage classes are interchangeable. The role is needed, the class is not. The situation we're trying to avoid is where you need a specific class, or more precisely, a specific skill, to finish an encounter. The most extreme encounter I came across was in DAoC, where a stage of the Apocalypse fight can only be done by clerics; as in the boss could only be hurt by that class, and clerics were the lowest played class at the time.

[Duelle]

I am against the addition of a new support role, primarily because it adds unneeded complexity to. I don't disagree with more dps/support roles, as I suspect we'l see more of that. However, I think a better solution is to strengthen the existing design of spreading buffs, debuffs, and CC around ALL classes, and building encounters that aren't movement based DPS races.

Asking for more utility spread throughout the jobs isn't the same as asking for hybrids, though. "Pure DPS" utility usually comes in the form of damage buffs to the raid or CC, whereas hybrids usually get something connected to one of their other roles. A NIN increases the slashing damage on target, whereas a RDM may have situational offheals reliant on procs or the ability to reduce damage taken by one party member.

While I'm not opposed to this, it should be noted the developers have stayed away from anything that directly affects raid DPS for the most part. NIN is pretty much the first job that can directly affect raid DPS by increasing damage the mob takes by 10% (it lasts 10 seconds and requires Hide/Suiton, but still).

Every class has its niche (or should)

Mechanically, sure. Role-wise, not necessary.

All gaming communities in MMORPGs take the path of least resistance.

Fixed. This is the reality of things, and should always be kept in mind.

[LeCard]

While I'm not opposed to this, it should be noted the developers have stayed away from anything that directly affects raid DPS for the most part. NIN is pretty much the first job that can directly affect raid DPS by increasing damage the mob takes by 10% (it lasts 10 seconds and requires Hide/Suiton, but still).

You forgot Bard, most do. If there is a BLM/SMN in your party a Bard can directly affect DPS by using Foe Requiem ballad for, I think, 10% boost to dmg taken by mobs from magic damage. It could also be used to increase a healer's DPS if you really wanted to, but that could get questionable and/or risky depending on how much healing they need to be doing.

[Niwashi]

The only reason the design team can't do that currently is they can't rely on a certain class's skill to be present. Part of solving that is strengthening the existing design.

Support isn't a class, it's a role, just like tank is a role, healer is a role, and damage dealer is a role. They can certainly design content to require someone who can fulfill the support role, just as they currently design content to require players who can fill the other three roles. (Of course, just as with the other three roles they currently use, there should ideally be multiple different classes that take different approaches to fulfilling the support role.)

[Delily]

Support isn't a class, it's a role, just like tank is a role, healer is a role, and damage dealer is a role. They can certainly design content to require someone who can fulfill the support role, just as they currently design content to require players who can fill the other three roles. (Of course, just as with the other three roles they currently use, there should ideally be multiple different classes that take different approaches to fulfilling the support role.)

Actually, healing is not a role, as it's a subset of support, since the healer supports the group by keeping people alive. This conversation is more about having dedicated buffing and debuffing classes, like FFXI's bard and red mage. The design team could definitely create those classes and a formal requirement for them, but as mentioned, that would create another choke point for queues, and since the class is now required, you'd have to balance around their presence, so you'd in effect be weakening every other class for the sake of having those classes present. Also, organized groups would strive to find way to reduce their impact, so it'd collapse back into heals, damage, and tanks. The current design of spreading buffs, debuffs, and CC among the various classes and job is probably the efficient to balance the game.