Break the Trinity System Please

[Delily]

^no, contextually was speaking on the examples of ones people were saying broke the game or ruined it... not saying 100% of past examples were bad design.

Games are meant for enjoyment, if implementing Supports meant more people had more fun playing the game, it's worth a look.

Necessary doesn't really factor in.

PVP isn't 'necessary', more than 8-man's isn't 'necessary', Card Game isn't 'necessary'.

Surely enough people would love to play a Support-archetype in this game to merit its consideration.

I don't think I've read a comment as wrong as "Necessary doesn't factor in". Simply because a portion of the player base thinks an idea should be fun isn't enough reason to warrant the addition of an idea, especially when that idea adds unneeded complexity to a core design element of the game. A good game is one that lays out a core design, and then sticks that as close as possible.

I'm not going to go into why adding in a support role adds complexity, there's a myriad of reasons that have been presented on this post. Your examples, do not support your claim.

FFXIV is a PvE raiding game. All other activities asides, players will spend the majority of their time in groups of varying size defeating trash mobs and running encounters. Therefore, 8 mans groups are a necessary aspect of that, since offering people different groups sizes offers people differing degrees of challenge. PvP and the card game (Triple Triad?) may not be necessary to that specific goal, but they do add something else people can do when they don't want to do dungeon dives. They are necessary in that they do not impact the core raiding game, and they do offer people some diversity because not everyone wants to run dungeons (or craft) all the time.

When don't stick to your design and don't care that much about balance, you get games like Everquest and FFXI, where's there's lot of jobs whose utility is situational. I think the designers are trying to avoid that.

[Toodles]

^contextually we're talking about sticking to the design in the form of DPS-Support Hybrids like Bard... it wouldn't disrupt the game's core design/structure much at all. And I'm saying balance is a must.

Just because you have a Bard-alike that applies party-buffs in a manner that's less passive & global doesn't mean you're breaking the game if balance is kept in mind which I'm arguing is possible.

Making a Job who's focus is less on enemy mobs spamming it's attacks can be implemented properly without breaking the game.

I feel like you need to go back 5 or so pages & read through much more carefully, the context seems to keep flying over your head.

As a note, the topic of conversation switched from breaking the Trinity to diversifying it a while ago.

[Veji]

No.

Go play GW2.

Seconded. Its a mess. It really is. I mean, it "works" but its awkward and you die alot. I <3 Trinity.

[ApolloGenX]

When don't stick to your design and don't care that much about balance, you get games like Everquest and FFXI, where's there's lot of jobs whose utility is situational. I think the designers are trying to avoid that.

Can I just say as a retired bleeding edge world first raiding enchanter from EQ, that the situational usefulness was what made it so effing amazing! Some raids, I just buffed and tried to throw in my damage (which was a bit subpar, but my buffs made up for it)... and some raids, crowd control was a critical aspect of the encounter and I and my ENC comrads shined like the sun.

The difference between a good and not so good ENC was HUGE and obvious. You were CCing mobs that would destroy you in one hit and then wipe your raid. That game had something that this game didn't- variety in encounter mechanics that were based on class based skills -and- encounter mechanics that utilized support class skills. That game let everyone shine at some point... it wasn't a keyboard mashing jumprope mess.

You had pulling teams, you had tanks, you had healer teams, you had CC teams. You even had some dps teams (casters/melee). Everyone here is the same- just mashing their buttons while the entire group "jumps"!! at the same time.

[ReplicaX]

Necessary doesn't really factor in.

PVP isn't 'necessary', more than 8-man's isn't 'necessary', Card Game isn't 'necessary'.

Surely enough people would love to play a Support-archetype in this game to merit its consideration.

I hope you consider the amount of work involved for your request. Not only on the Dev end and all released content that needs to be adjusted and balance. All the counters the community will attempt to shortcut or make things easier.

DF may force Role requirements. However, if anything so much gives an upper hand in content. You will see the community exploit premades in PF to replace specific Role spots. Which could create necessity and shun other roles and/or jobs.

Then the Dev Team is in a hard spot to rebalance and/or enforce even stricter rules, sacrificing the freedom of custom makeups entirely. This is by no means a simple process or request.

[Delily]

^contextually we're talking about sticking to the design in the form of DPS-Support Hybrids like Bard... it wouldn't disrupt the game's core design/structure much at all. And I'm saying balance is a must.
Just because you have a Bard-alike that applies party-buffs in a manner that's less passive & global doesn't mean you're breaking the game if balance is kept in mind which I'm arguing is possible.

Making a Job who's focus is less on enemy mobs spamming it's attacks can be implemented properly without breaking the game.

I feel like you need to go back 5 or so pages & read through much more carefully, the context seems to keep flying over your head.

As a note, the topic of conversation switched from breaking the Trinity to diversifying it a while ago.

The context does not go over my head. I am fully aware you had 2 proposals, a full on Support role, and hybrids. I am against the addition of a new support role, primarily because it adds unneeded complexity to. I don't disagree with more dps/support roles, as I suspect we'l see more of that. However, I think a better solution is to strengthen the existing design of spreading buffs, debuffs, and CC around ALL classes, and building encounters that aren't movement based DPS races.

Can I just say as a retired bleeding edge world first raiding enchanter from EQ, that the situational usefulness was what made it so effing amazing! Some raids, I just buffed and tried to throw in my damage (which was a bit subpar, but my buffs made up for it)... and some raids, crowd control was a critical aspect of the encounter and I and my ENC comrads shined like the sun.

The difference between a good and not so good ENC was HUGE and obvious. You were CCing mobs that would destroy you in one hit and then wipe your raid. That game had something that this game didn't- variety in encounter mechanics that were based on class based skills -and- encounter mechanics that utilized support class skills. That game let everyone shine at some point... it wasn't a keyboard mashing jumprope mess.

You had pulling teams, you had tanks, you had healer teams, you had CC teams. You even had some dps teams (casters/melee). Everyone here is the same- just mashing their buttons while the entire group "jumps"!! at the same time.

The only reason the design team can't do that currently is they can't rely on a certain class's skill to be present. Part of solving that is strengthening the existing design.

[ApolloGenX]

The only reason the design team can't do that currently is they can't rely on a certain class's skill to be present. Part of solving that is strengthening the existing design.

Why not? If two support roles branch off a single class, then there's no reason they can't. That would be requiring one of two jobs to be present. They do that with tanks and healers already. They can even have you choose which job, by making them use different stats, so you can't be both - forcing a choice like tanks and healers make (actually more of one, since you can't be both... but can be both tank or healer jobs)

[Delily]

Why not? If two support roles branch off a single class, then there's no reason they can't. That would be requiring one of two jobs to be present. They do that with tanks and healers already. They can even have you choose which job, by making them use different stats, so you can't be both - forcing a choice like tanks and healers make (actually more of one, since you can't be both... but can be both tank or healer jobs)

They do what with tanks and healers? The only job that can change it's role is the arcanist, and I read that's not a model they want to continue in the future because of gearing issues (since summoners and scholars share stats, but serve 2 different roles). Although, your post does make me think a better solution is to open up more cross class skills. Since I main arcanist, I'd could see giving repose to scholars and sleep to summoners a way to ensure that skill is present. However, I think it's possible to do that with other classes.

[ApolloGenX]

They do what with tanks and healers? The only job that can change it's role is the arcanist, and I read that's not a model they want to continue in the future because of gearing issues (since summoners and scholars share stats, but serve 2 different roles). Although, your post does make me think a better solution is to open up more cross class skills. Since I main arcanist, I'd could see giving repose to scholars and sleep to summoners a way to ensure that skill is present. However, I think it's possible to do that with other classes.

I can't remember but I think the whm job was unlocked with cnj/acn.... and the sch job was acn/conj... right? So don't all fights require both of those classes?

[Delily]

I can't remember but I think the whm job was unlocked with cnj/acn.... and the sch job was acn/conj... right? So don't all fights require both of those classes?

As far as I know, the current encounters require a healer, with either job working just fine. That's similar to how the tanks and damage classes are interchangeable. The role is needed, the class is not. The situation we're trying to avoid is where you need a specific class, or more precisely, a specific skill, to finish an encounter. The most extreme encounter I came across was in DAoC, where a stage of the Apocalypse fight can only be done by clerics; as in the boss could only be hurt by that class, and clerics were the lowest played class at the time.