Break the Trinity System Please

[Delily]

I dunno.
Are Tanks weaker for having to rely on Healers?
Are DD's weaker for not being able to take as many hits as a Tank?
Are Healers any weaker for not being able to attack as hard as DD's?

Mechanically they could just make it where you, as a solo character, where fully capable of fighting anything. The 3 role system is as arbitrary as any other RPG structure. The battles in this game are just designed around it.

I wouldn't call it arbitrary, more emergent. I could go through a whole history, but I would say it's really the simplest design around which to design and balance a game. Once you NEED a support class to fight (FFXI, EQ, DAoC), you run into the problem that they generally are the lowest played classes around,since they're usually not very interesting. (Seriously, we have a tank shortage as is right now). I think FFXIV's design of spreading out support and CC to the various jobs is an excellent compromise, but that the designers need to build encounters that encourage people to use their CC and enhance skills more.

[Akiza]

If Final Fantasy XIV had a Class system like Everquest 2 where there are two specializations for each Job and every one is versatile then the Trinity system wouldn't have to be broken.

[Triston]

While it has been shown in past MMOs that having a dedicated support role allows for much more complicated mechanics, (see RIFT) the major problem is in bottlenecking for queues. Adding a support role would require that they increase party sizes to ~6, (tank/heal/support/3dps) which then would become 12-14 in a full party, and having such LARGE groups is really unwieldy from both a designer and player perspective. (just ask Blizzard)
No matter how cool some of us think it would be to play a dedicated buffer/debuffer, there are 4-5x as many people who just want to do dps, and it's already well-known how bad DPS queues are in every MMO ever.


Additionally, depending on how the role is taken into account in high-end raid situations, the support jobs would become either obsolete in certain cases (having one that specializes in CC in a no-CC fight or vice versa, again see RIFT or EQ) OR functionally identical with redundant gameplay, making you wonder why they exist at all. (WoW players do notice when they don't have the full collection of raid buffs, but ask how much they care which classes they bring to a raid)

The only meaningful workaround would be to design encounters to permit for more than one strategy depending on which support you bring, and wow if that isn't asking way too much of any developer just to add another role.

As a BRD player from FFXI, I will be the first to admit that I love primary supporting, but it is an extremely flawed concept. I played BRD, which has enjoyed the advantage of having been welcome in 99.999% of all content FFXI has produced. Ask a RDM player how they feel, or PUP, or DNC, etc. Support roles inherently compete with each other, and have no place in modern MMOs where balance BETWEEN classes is valued. Support abilities are best when distributed among all jobs, especially in a way that all are useful but never required.

..and did I mention it's unpopular? Everyone needs a BRD, few want to play one.

[Sainya]

What do you all think?

What I think may be unpopular with the vocal minority on these forums: No one ever seems happy. The 1.0 system of cross-classing any ability you wanted was a great idea in theory, and would have made for great things like support mage jobs or even DD backup healers. But nope, everyone complained so much about it they took it out instead of just improving it. I liked being able to backup heal on Pugilist. And also what I think is in my signature below.

Please look forward to it.

[raelgun]

Rift didnt have complicated mechanics, and certainly support didnt allow for it either, support just had access to certain abilities that could nullify a ability that needs to be stopped, you basically activate said skill when needed and make sure you are free under the gcd to do it, how is that allowing for more complicated mechanics ?

[Gramul]

the question is more:
do the support will make up for the difference of dps?
do the support will bring anything to the group worth the loose of one dps and the increase of the duration of the fight?
do the support will be able to level up without rely to a whole group?

and the more important one:
do a lot of player will really play it? or do it will simply be played by a small number of player?

That's not really the point I'm trying to make. I'm not really sure how to clarify what I'm trying to say, but I'll give it a shot and try to retroactively address your questions too.
Let's say this game started out as you being able to destroy any enemy before it kills you. But then they patched it so that you need someone to take the brunt of damage because it's too much for you to take.
Then they patch it again so you need healers to manage overall damage because they hit even harder now.
If they where to add more stat boosters and downers that lasted for longer periods, we would need a job to counteract that.

The only reason we don't see ourselves as weaker for relying on each other is because we already do. We're used to it.

People play as healers and tanks because they're needed and because they are fun to play. A stat based job would be no different if implemented well. Things like strong poisons and being able to weaken certain defenses could help solo players not feel so helpless.
The problem is, so much of the game is already designed around the trinity system that it would need a lot of reworking to make it relevant for past content. And I can't see them doing that, or players being happy with the initial change.

I wouldn't call it arbitrary, more emergent.

Emergent gameplay was the intent behind 1.0. With players being able to cross class more viable skills, but that was never fully realized.
This game is constructed on the trinity idea. It demands it of the playerbase.

[BlaiseArath]

So you're asking to be different for the sake of being different

No, thats not what >i'm< saying. Read the post i quoted, and the first sentence of my post, it'll make sense. I was using their argument as a start point. Its not what I'm asking for at all, simply by applying the logic of the one I quoted to the argument of mine to show that it wouldn't really be a negative impact.

And if you have to ask yourself why, you are missing the concept of subjective fun, despite how some people feel "If its not fun then quit!" is an incredibly narrow and closeminded approach to games, I'm not saying rewrite everything, but adding more is rarely a harsh problem. You may not enjoy the idea of being a support class, but there are more than enough players who would. In a game entirely about the community and enjoyment, what harm, if balanced properly, is there in adding another type of roll that will just enhance the enjoyment of some of the community?

You may find it redundant, or even a little useless... but others could thoroughly enjoy the idea of providing a more support role. In the same light, you may not like being a healer, but other players find enjoyment in that role. Its not rocket science, and its purely a subjective thing much like fun. I think with how good the devs have done so far in the balancing act of jobs, they'd have no problem pulling off a Support role. Theres also one other subject of my post you might ave missed

At this point, with the 4/8 system so ingrained into the game, I don't see a support type class working without some restructuring. Its not impossible, but there'd be a lot of balancing concerns to address first.

So again, I support the Idea that as a 4 party system, Support/Debuff would have little purpose unless they specifically filled one of the 3 trinity places first and foremost... and at that point they would be too powerful. A "Full Party" raid though could easily be adjusted to be 1Tank, 2healers, 3DD and a Support... but releasing a job only useful in 8 mans would be silly and hard to level up. So yes, the party size would need restructuring to fit a support class, I'm in no argument there.

I also understand a support role could cause some events to need to be specifically re-tuned to adjust for those support jobs (Think how in XI, they adjusted some fights with the assumption Perfect Defense or Embrava were going to be used, and that made them hard/impossible without those abilities... creating a demand for specific jobs and specific buffs that excluded a lot). So yes, adding a support job can be introduced and implemented horribly and cause wide unbalance, but there are counter measures.

Say for instance, if you added a job that could increases Attack speed, Spell Speed, Skill Speed, Damage output, Defense, etc... basic BRD buffs in other games, but limit them by only allowing 2 to be active on a player at any given time regardless of how many support are in the party, you at least prevent "Bard rotations" Like what appeared in XI, another mechanic that hurt content.

Still, I'm not saying adding a support class or debuff class is absolutely needed for XIV, so don't think thats what I'm going for. I'm simply saying that despite how badly it could be done, there are right ways to do it.

[Spawns]

Support Roles for President

[Duelle]

And if you have to ask yourself why, you are missing the concept of subjective fun, despite how some people feel "If its not fun then quit!" is an incredibly narrow and close-minded approach to games, I'm not saying rewrite everything, but adding more is rarely a harsh problem.

Balance trumps subjective fun, because while balance can allow for subjective fun, subjective fun doesn't always allow for balance.

You may not enjoy the idea of being a support class, but there are more than enough players who would. In a game entirely about the community and enjoyment, what harm, if balanced properly, is there in adding another type of roll that will just enhance the enjoyment of some of the community?

The crux of my argument is that it messes with party dynamics and group comps in a way that is detrimental to the community as a whole. You have to factor human nature into these sort of things, because you know the support classes will follow the trend of being the least-played yet balanced to being the most needed. That's not a good thing for the game in the long run. As I said, look back to princess Red Mages and princess Bards.

If you think uppity tanks or healers are bad, the aforementioned two monstrocities were worse by several orders of magnitude.

In the same light, you may not like being a healer, but other players find enjoyment in that role. Its not rocket science, and its purely a subjective thing much like fun.

Except healers don't create any of the problems a support role does. Healers, along with tanks and DPS directly affect the battle, which is why the three work off each other as well as they do from a design perspective.

I think with how good the devs have done so far in the balancing act of jobs, they'd have no problem pulling off a Support role.

You're missing the fact that the reason balance between the jobs is in such a good place is because they stuck to three roles and blended support aspects into the three roles.

While it has been shown in past MMOs that having a dedicated support role allows for much more complicated mechanics, (see RIFT) the major problem is in bottlenecking for queues. Adding a support role would require that they increase party sizes to ~6, (tank/heal/support/3dps) which then would become 12-14 in a full party, and having such LARGE groups is really unwieldy from both a designer and player perspective. (just ask Blizzard)
No matter how cool some of us think it would be to play a dedicated buffer/debuffer, there are 4-5x as many people who just want to do dps, and it's already well-known how bad DPS queues are in every MMO ever.


Additionally, depending on how the role is taken into account in high-end raid situations, the support jobs would become either obsolete in certain cases (having one that specializes in CC in a no-CC fight or vice versa, again see RIFT or EQ) OR functionally identical with redundant gameplay, making you wonder why they exist at all. (WoW players do notice when they don't have the full collection of raid buffs, but ask how much they care which classes they bring to a raid)

The only meaningful workaround would be to design encounters to permit for more than one strategy depending on which support you bring, and wow if that isn't asking way too much of any developer just to add another role.

As a BRD player from FFXI, I will be the first to admit that I love primary supporting, but it is an extremely flawed concept. I played BRD, which has enjoyed the advantage of having been welcome in 99.999% of all content FFXI has produced. Ask a RDM player how they feel, or PUP, or DNC, etc. Support roles inherently compete with each other, and have no place in modern MMOs where balance BETWEEN classes is valued. Support abilities are best when distributed among all jobs, especially in a way that all are useful but never required.

..and did I mention it's unpopular? Everyone needs a BRD, few want to play one.

Gonna quote this for emphasis. It'll get ignored by some, but I'll be damned if I don't try to help people understand why things work the way they do.

[Sapphic]

Rift didnt have complicated mechanics, and certainly support didnt allow for it either, support just had access to certain abilities that could nullify a ability that needs to be stopped, you basically activate said skill when needed and make sure you are free under the gcd to do it, how is that allowing for more complicated mechanics ?

Rift raids where very highly tuned. Support added a lot in boss fights. Bards made a massive difference in high end raids. 1.0 tier 3 Hammerknell, tier 2 in the expansion also. tier 3 was added but I moved to ARR before that. The difference of having and not having support was blatently noticeable.

Also support was a lot more than you claim, reduced damage to raid, increase stats, damage debuffs, regens etc. Buffs you didn't "activate when needed" you kept them up constantly plus DPSd. Yes, support DPSd also, not as much as pure DPS of course. Pure DPS would be hitting in tier 2 30k single target, support around 18-20k.