Break the Trinity System Please

[Shadex]

The idea of support classes surely is nice but they are way more of a headache than they are worth in practice.

Once they design encounters with their support in mind they become mandatory for every raid, similar to WoWs Sunwell back in the day.
Not enough Shadows / Shamans online? Well cancel the raid.

As far as a broken trinity goes: Guild Wars 2 tried that and the content ended up being a horrible zerg fest. No thanks.

Then the developers need to not build encounters around support. Square likes to think that the 14 player base is too dumb for true support/cc but I honestly think that maybe Square just doesn't want to have to actually come up with anything more complex for boss fights than tank and spank. Maybe if they put some effort in and created situations that did not require a support role but was certainly made less difficult or at least different because of it we could see some true support jobs. The issue is often that on either side, developer or player, people are far too stuck in a stupid cookie cutter tank and spank rut that no one wants to be moved out of their comfort zone.

There is a reason when people are new to a boss fight in most MMOs today the joke is to say, "Don't stand in anything and don't die" because more often than not... that is the extent of the ingenuity that the encounter entails. :/

[Deusteele]

If players aren't forced to bring a support, they won't. Why would they bring 50%-75% of a dps/healer when they could just bring a pure dps/healer? We've seen, first hand. on the goddamn front page right now, players dropping extra roles in a fight to clear it faster with a "burn it" mentality.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-single-healer

How many times do we have to bring events like this to peoples attention that players will drop non-dps roles to kill boss faster.

[Granyala]

Then the developers need to not build encounters around support.

If the buffs from support classes are not mandatory, they will NEVER get a raid spot, because raw DPS/HPS are always more useful.

There really is no middle ground to be found because players will always minmax in order to maximize their chances of success.

It's easy to make bold claims and yell at the devs, but in the end it's not easy to come up with systems that work.
Many MMOs tried including WoW and guess what: WoW axed the role of support because of the problems it causes.

Players just miss support because it basically guarantees them a raid spot. Often due to recruitment problems even if they perform sub par.

[Shadex]

If players aren't forced to bring a support, they won't. Why would they bring 50%-75% of a dps/healer when they could just bring a pure dps/healer? We've seen, first hand. on the goddamn front page right now, players dropping extra roles in a fight to clear it faster with a "burn it" mentality.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-single-healer

How many times do we have to bring events like this to peoples attention that players will drop non-dps roles to kill boss faster.

People will also not take members that have not cleared an instance previously. People will also kick members that are not geared to their satisfaction or worse... watch the cut scenes... *gasps* People.... are DBs. Why should the players that want to play support classes be punished because other players are too impatient or self-focused to consider taking on content in another way other than the boring done to friggin death 'throw tons of DPS at it and hope it dies before we do' mentality.

Anyone consider that one of the reasons tanks and healers are in such short supply is because DPS players cannot be bothered to take their feelings into consideration for two seconds and realize keeping all that aggro and keeping all those glass cannon DPS players alive is too much stress and makes playing those classes miserable? I never minded tanking or healing in games with decent CC because everything was under control. This put all the responsibility and blame on the tanks and healers to keep us DPS up mentality has a lot to do with the fact that we have no support or cc to ease the burden and stress. Adding those classes will chafe a few nownownowpullnowmoarfastur players but I would put gil on that it would also see the rise of more players willing to take on the difficult slots.

[Moerser]

Then the developers need to not build encounters around support. Square likes to think that the 14 player base is too dumb for true support/cc but I honestly think that maybe Square just doesn't want to have to actually come up with anything more complex for boss fights than tank and spank...

The more random raids/primals/whatever u play...the more u will realize that u r totally right with this sentence.
the 14 player base is too dumb for true support/cc
Why?
Because the 14 player base is too dumb for the system we use atm.
Least thats what i see InGame, way more often than nice and smooth ppl tryin to play well as a team.

Greetz,
Mörser out

[Gramul]

I really wish they could.
All this shoehorning into roles stands for a lack of variety. No real stat jobs, no jobs that blur the line. Traditional FF jobs awkwardly twisted to match one of 3 roles. The series wasn't meant to have 3 kinds of jobs with moderate differences, it's a series with all sorts of crazy niches.

It would probably screw up their instanced content though so I don't see them ever doing anything for that.

[raelgun]

talks about tank and spank

Do you even know what this term means in a mmo boss fight? have you done any coil, raided in WOW or Rift in a progressive manner?
You just used that term very wrong, also, if the fights arent regarded as complex, then why is the failure rate in coil so high for FF14 playerbase, also your talk about using CC in fights is deemed a harder thing to do, its not, its easy and it also makes the fights so much easier then it needs to be, you literally stop a mechanic instead of dealing with it directly and how it interacts with other parts of the fight. You obviously have no end game experience with tight mechanics if this is your opinion.

Lets give Sleep from BLMs as an example, not a boss fight, but its the most apparent to give, before the first boss in WP, mass pulling all the mobs and then sleeping the pack and just killing the tonberry is much easier then having to kill everything on the way as this opens up the doorway to the boss and you can lock out the remaining mobs out.

[Granyala]

Anyone consider that one of the reasons tanks and healers are in such short supply is because DPS players cannot be bothered to take their feelings into consideration for two seconds and realize keeping all that aggro and keeping all those glass cannon DPS players alive is too much stress and makes playing those classes miserable? I never minded tanking or healing in games with decent CC because everything was under control. This put all the responsibility and blame on the tanks and healers to keep us DPS up mentality has a lot to do with the fact that we have no support or cc to ease the burden and stress.

We already HAVE support: It's called "crowd control", "aggro dump / reduce", "offheals & debuffs" and "general common fu***sense" (i.E: new mob popped up, MAYBE I should NOT DPS it right of the bat so the tank has a chance to grab aggro)

Problem is: People either lack player skill to use it or are too overgeared to have to use it (why waste time with CC and stuff if your gear allows you to chain AoE?!).
Everything you need to support tanks and heals already is in the game.

have you done any coil, raided in WOW or Rift in a progressive manner?

The way he talks: He has not been in contact with the mindset of progression raiders and minmaxers.

[Sapphic]

Do you even know what this term means in a mmo boss fight? have you done any coil, raided in WOW or Rift in a progressive manner?

In Rift, 20 man raids support was needed, Bard buffs made a huge difference, plus Chloro buffs. But, with 5 man content where you qued heals, tank, 2xdps plus support, if you qued as support and stayed as support, you would be a detriment, "support" switched to DPS inside. Which would be the exact same in FFXIV if they enforced a support role in dungeons.

Also with Rift, when I was raiding I'd switch souls during the run For trash i'd switch to Tactician, for one boss I'd switch to Assassin, and for others 61 Bard and still pump out respectable DPS whilst maintaining buffs.

To be fair, pure support is a dead system, starting dieing when Mezzers CC abilities got divided amongst other classes.

[M0xie]

As I've said in the past, there's a reason developers ended up rolling aspects of "support" and "mezzer" into the trinity roles. It gives the trinity roles depth while limiting the number of roles people don't want to do.

Everquest... the original trinity was tank,healer, mezzer/slower.

To comment on both of these, I would first say that I played enchanter in Everquest for way too many years, and I loved it. I still miss that game because there aren't any other games with a class like it. Support classes were necessary however if you recall, because group content required parties of 6 and if you didn't have a slower or a crowd control or buffs it was usually not pretty. Content was hard. The "new" trinity works because support classes aren't needed anymore.