Break the Trinity System Please

[Duelle]

I don't think you ever touched XI if you threw RDM into the "true support" category.

And I'll question your playing it if you actually refute the fact that the playerbase used it as nothing but pure support. The five cats soloing bosses and thus making everyone else hate us notwithstanding, of course (AKA "WTF y ar u aksing for melee buffs & fixes for ur job?!?!?!? go solo sky gods trollololol").

Bard should be a support class, but the ballads feel like more of a joke nod at support than real support.

Our bard is a DPS with utility cooldowns. Much like an enhancement shaman but requiring even more situational awareness since BRDs are supposed to know when to turn on the songs and when to turn off to go back to their full DPS potential. We got a much better deal out of the proceedings with things as they are.

Given that content in this game is essentially 4 or 8 person groups though, could a support job adequately depose a DPS in 4-man content? If they can, then aren't they greatly overpowered in 8-man content? I could see them fitting them into 8-man content easily enough and balancing that properly, but when you have to remove ~40% of your damage for support (in 4-man content assuming tank is 20% and DPS are each 40%) then that support has to pick up that 40% somehow or else nobody's going to bother.

The thread on the "other systems" subforums pretty much covers this. Support ends up being either worthless or mandatory for any hard content. You can't measure this by percentages to contribution because there are other factors that need to be taken into account. Including but not limited to class synergy and encounter design. Not to mention that no amount of buffs and debuffs are going to make up for that portion of missing damage. Buffs that end up making up that missing damage end up being overpowered, same thing for debuffs and so the cycle continues.

[Xatsh]

If true support is anything like BRD or RDM played in FFXI, no thanks. That is the height of boring/no skill play. Buff > Buff > Buff > Debuff > Debuff > Buff > "WHAT ARE YOU DOING STOP TRYING TO MELEE" > etc

You and me played different games in reference to rdm, brd maby in hnm fights I would give you the it is boring as all get out.

RDM was a healer, Support, Tank, Crowd Control and Debuff class for endgame XI. Only thing it could not do well endgame was nuke and melee.

Brd was a refresh whore in party play in XI. I will say that. This one I actually agree with you on. But outside hnms they were main pullers, secondary crowd control, main support, back up healer. (They were one of the most active jobs in a party)

Solo play brd was garbage through and through it required a party to function. RDM was a god amoung classes capable of killing world bosses that were designed for alliances solo. (well took hours to do but still doable)

[Giantbane]

I don't think you ever touched XI if you threw RDM into the "true support" category lol.

You and me played different games in reference to rdm, brd maby in hnm fights I would give you the it is boring as all get out.

RDM was a healer, Support, Tank, Crowd Control and Debuff class for endgame XI. Only thing it could not do well endgame was nuke and melee.

Brd was a refresh whore in party play in XI. I will say that. This one I actually agree with you on. But outside hnms they were main pullers, secondary crowd control, main support, back up healer. (They were one of the most active jobs in a party)

Solo play brd was garbage through and through it required a party to function. RDM was a god amoung classes capable of killing world bosses that were designed for alliances solo. (well took hours to do but still doable)

When I left FFXI (albeit a very long time ago), the RDM was strongly encouraged during party play to Refresh, Haste, Dia, etc. Which effectively took the very diverse RDM and pigeonholed it into a buff/debuff bot when it played with others because its buffs were so strong.

There is little to no skill to buffing/debuffing and very little immediate consequence. These abilities work better as a side function of an existing tank/dps/healer, not as its primary role.

[Shadex]

There is little to no skill to buffing/debuffing...

That statement made my LOL. In an MMO world of DPS classes where you could literally face role the keyboard and do your job I found that funny. Honestly, the most challenging aspect of playing a support/CC class is dealing with the rest of your 'own' team that can't be bothered to pay attention to marks, sleeps, roots, debuffs, etc because they are too busy face rolling their class while watching Yu-Gi-Oh on Hulu.

Any class/job can be challenging and fun if played to its potential. How many of us have grouped with MNKs and DRGs that never move from a single position? Played correctly can those classes be challenging? Sure, but so can a support class if played and implemented correctly.

[Giantbane]

That statement made my LOL. In an MMO world of DPS classes where you could literally face role the keyboard and do your job I found that funny. Honestly, the most challenging aspect of playing a support/CC class is dealing with the rest of your 'own' team that can't be bothered to pay attention to marks, sleeps, roots, debuffs, etc because they are too busy face rolling their class while watching Yu-Gi-Oh on Hulu.

Any class/job can be challenging and fun if played to its potential. How many of us have grouped with MNKs and DRGs that never move from a single position? Played correctly can those classes be challenging? Sure, but so can a support class if played and
implemented correctly.

DPSing "well" in FFXIV usually requires you to do more than face roll your job.

Besides, it sounds like you're saying a support/CC class is challenging when your own team isn't doing their jobs. Support/CC would be redundant in this situation as your own team should have just done its job in the first place.

[Evtrai]

No.

Go play GW2.

[Codek]

No.

Go play GW2.

Wrong "break the Trinity" topic...

[IzumiYuki]

No.

Go play GW2.

Heard of the abomination known as GW2? Terrible. I think nothing can top the trinity.

Thus I must express my complete opposition to OP's idea, in hopes that it will not come to fruition.

You totally missed the point. He wants to "break" the Trinity by adding a fourth role to it, that is support.

He doesn't want to totally remove the system like in GW2.

[Pandastirfry]

You totally missed the point. He wants to "break" the Trinity by adding a fourth role to it, that is support.

He doesn't want to totally remove the system like in GW2.

Which just creates a 4th slot that must be filled, and usually the trinity reaserts itself as the "true support class" casts it's handful of buffs/debuffs and then gets relegated to backup/off healer or gimped DPS until it's time to refresh the buffs. I remember being a BRD in XI, cast my two DPS songs, Cast my Mage Ballads... Now shut up and cast cure until it's time to cast songs again, and don't you dare try to melee

[Nutz]

Which just creates a 4th slot that must be filled, and usually the trinity reaserts itself as the "true support class" casts it's handful of buffs/debuffs and then gets relegated to backup/off healer or gimped DPS until it's time to refresh the buffs. I remember being a BRD in XI, cast my two DPS songs, Cast my Mage Ballads... Now shut up and cast cure until it's time to cast songs again, and don't you dare try to melee

Well, to be fair a support class or mage hitting a mob with their weapon in that game was actually designed to be detrimental....for some reason. Since mobs don't gain TP per hit and use actions at an increased rate because of that in this game that particular bit would not be a factor. I feel like they could make a much more engaging support class than BRD or RDM were (or the semi-supports like SMN and COR) with a decent variety of shorter buffs and reduced damage dealing and/or healing capabilities.

Given that content in this game is essentially 4 or 8 person groups though, could a support job adequately depose a DPS in 4-man content? If they can, then aren't they greatly overpowered in 8-man content? I could see them fitting them into 8-man content easily enough and balancing that properly, but when you have to remove ~40% of your damage for support (in 4-man content assuming tank is 20% and DPS are each 40%) then that support has to pick up that 40% somehow or else nobody's going to bother.