Break the Trinity System Please

[ReplicaX]

Necessary doesn't really factor in.

PVP isn't 'necessary', more than 8-man's isn't 'necessary', Card Game isn't 'necessary'.

Surely enough people would love to play a Support-archetype in this game to merit its consideration.

I hope you consider the amount of work involved for your request. Not only on the Dev end and all released content that needs to be adjusted and balance. All the counters the community will attempt to shortcut or make things easier.

DF may force Role requirements. However, if anything so much gives an upper hand in content. You will see the community exploit premades in PF to replace specific Role spots. Which could create necessity and shun other roles and/or jobs.

Then the Dev Team is in a hard spot to rebalance and/or enforce even stricter rules, sacrificing the freedom of custom makeups entirely. This is by no means a simple process or request.

[Lord_Zlatan]

I think LOTROs Captain class was the best support class I'd ever seen in a game. They could spec as tank, healer, or DD and subsequently support either of those roles best, while still being able to support the rest of the party. How were they balanced? They couldn't do any of this stuff to themselves. 8 man content always needed a captain but you could spec to be any of the 3 roles. I really like it and think it would work well here.

[Dwill]

I think LOTROs Captain class was the best support class I'd ever seen in a game. They could spec as tank, healer, or DD and subsequently support either of those roles best, while still being able to support the rest of the party. How were they balanced? They couldn't do any of this stuff to themselves. 8 man content always needed a captain but you could spec to be any of the 3 roles. I really like it and think it would work well here.

Captains were way powerful. The amount of damage/healing they could bring with their support was so good, every group, not every raid, every single group in the raid wanted their own captain.

While they were nice, captains or even anything similar could never work here. They made content that was remotely challenging a real joke due to how good their buffs were. They would literally kill the balance of this game.

[PrimeEvilPanda]

Be still my heart- always loved being a support class. I especially miss Chanter (from Aion). The best and most loved support class I can think of. Loved those yummy mantras:

Victory Mantra - Increases Attack.
Shield Mantra - Increases Physical Defense, Block, Parry and Evasion.
Magic Mantra - Increases Magic Boost and Magic Accuracy.
Celerity Mantra - Increases Movement Speed.
Revival Mantra - Recovers HP.
Clement Mind Mantra - Recovers MP.
Intensity Mantra - Increases Crit Strike.
Protection Mantra - Increases All Elemental Defense.
Enhancement Mantra - Increases Stun Resist.
Invincibility Mantra - Recovers MP and increases Attack, Physical Defense, and Magic Boost.
Hit Mantra - Increases Crit Strike, Crit Spell, Strike Resist and Spell Resist

[Exstal]

Be still my heart- always loved being a support class. I especially miss Chanter (from Aion). The best and most loved support class I can think of. Loved those yummy mantras:

Victory Mantra - Increases Attack.
Shield Mantra - Increases Physical Defense, Block, Parry and Evasion.
Magic Mantra - Increases Magic Boost and Magic Accuracy.
Celerity Mantra - Increases Movement Speed.
Revival Mantra - Recovers HP.
Clement Mind Mantra - Recovers MP.
Intensity Mantra - Increases Crit Strike.
Protection Mantra - Increases All Elemental Defense.
Enhancement Mantra - Increases Stun Resist.
Invincibility Mantra - Recovers MP and increases Attack, Physical Defense, and Magic Boost.
Hit Mantra - Increases Crit Strike, Crit Spell, Strike Resist and Spell Resist

Then you met a Spiritmaster in PvP and cried many, many tears.

The good 'ol days

[Toodles]

^contextually we're talking about sticking to the design in the form of DPS-Support Hybrids like Bard... it wouldn't disrupt the game's core design/structure much at all. And I'm saying balance is a must.

Just because you have a Bard-alike that applies party-buffs in a manner that's less passive & global doesn't mean you're breaking the game if balance is kept in mind which I'm arguing is possible.

Making a Job who's focus is less on enemy mobs spamming it's attacks can be implemented properly without breaking the game.

I feel like you need to go back 5 or so pages & read through much more carefully, the context seems to keep flying over your head.

As a note, the topic of conversation switched from breaking the Trinity to diversifying it a while ago.

[Delily]

^contextually we're talking about sticking to the design in the form of DPS-Support Hybrids like Bard... it wouldn't disrupt the game's core design/structure much at all. And I'm saying balance is a must.
Just because you have a Bard-alike that applies party-buffs in a manner that's less passive & global doesn't mean you're breaking the game if balance is kept in mind which I'm arguing is possible.

Making a Job who's focus is less on enemy mobs spamming it's attacks can be implemented properly without breaking the game.

I feel like you need to go back 5 or so pages & read through much more carefully, the context seems to keep flying over your head.

As a note, the topic of conversation switched from breaking the Trinity to diversifying it a while ago.

The context does not go over my head. I am fully aware you had 2 proposals, a full on Support role, and hybrids. I am against the addition of a new support role, primarily because it adds unneeded complexity to. I don't disagree with more dps/support roles, as I suspect we'l see more of that. However, I think a better solution is to strengthen the existing design of spreading buffs, debuffs, and CC around ALL classes, and building encounters that aren't movement based DPS races.

Can I just say as a retired bleeding edge world first raiding enchanter from EQ, that the situational usefulness was what made it so effing amazing! Some raids, I just buffed and tried to throw in my damage (which was a bit subpar, but my buffs made up for it)... and some raids, crowd control was a critical aspect of the encounter and I and my ENC comrads shined like the sun.

The difference between a good and not so good ENC was HUGE and obvious. You were CCing mobs that would destroy you in one hit and then wipe your raid. That game had something that this game didn't- variety in encounter mechanics that were based on class based skills -and- encounter mechanics that utilized support class skills. That game let everyone shine at some point... it wasn't a keyboard mashing jumprope mess.

You had pulling teams, you had tanks, you had healer teams, you had CC teams. You even had some dps teams (casters/melee). Everyone here is the same- just mashing their buttons while the entire group "jumps"!! at the same time.

The only reason the design team can't do that currently is they can't rely on a certain class's skill to be present. Part of solving that is strengthening the existing design.

[ApolloGenX]

The only reason the design team can't do that currently is they can't rely on a certain class's skill to be present. Part of solving that is strengthening the existing design.

Why not? If two support roles branch off a single class, then there's no reason they can't. That would be requiring one of two jobs to be present. They do that with tanks and healers already. They can even have you choose which job, by making them use different stats, so you can't be both - forcing a choice like tanks and healers make (actually more of one, since you can't be both... but can be both tank or healer jobs)

[Delily]

Why not? If two support roles branch off a single class, then there's no reason they can't. That would be requiring one of two jobs to be present. They do that with tanks and healers already. They can even have you choose which job, by making them use different stats, so you can't be both - forcing a choice like tanks and healers make (actually more of one, since you can't be both... but can be both tank or healer jobs)

They do what with tanks and healers? The only job that can change it's role is the arcanist, and I read that's not a model they want to continue in the future because of gearing issues (since summoners and scholars share stats, but serve 2 different roles). Although, your post does make me think a better solution is to open up more cross class skills. Since I main arcanist, I'd could see giving repose to scholars and sleep to summoners a way to ensure that skill is present. However, I think it's possible to do that with other classes.

[ApolloGenX]

They do what with tanks and healers? The only job that can change it's role is the arcanist, and I read that's not a model they want to continue in the future because of gearing issues (since summoners and scholars share stats, but serve 2 different roles). Although, your post does make me think a better solution is to open up more cross class skills. Since I main arcanist, I'd could see giving repose to scholars and sleep to summoners a way to ensure that skill is present. However, I think it's possible to do that with other classes.

I can't remember but I think the whm job was unlocked with cnj/acn.... and the sch job was acn/conj... right? So don't all fights require both of those classes?