Break the Trinity System Please

[NefarioCall]

I wish.......

[IndigoHawk]

People complain about trinity but it works fine.

The problem with support is that unless it can cause failure or success, then it's irrelevant.

Tanks, healers, and dps all have critical roles.

Supports have no role. If their buffs increase dps, then they're effectively a dps class. Their buffs/debuffs will be balanced so the group does the same damage regardless of whether the group uses support or dps. Which means support is irrelevant and might as well be a dps class.

If buffs are needed for tanks and healers to do their jobs, then the tanks and healers are underpowered. Making tanks and healers weak so they need support just makes things harder on them. Tank and heal are already unpopular. Don't add support and make them even weaker and less popular.

[BlaiseArath]

-

Okay, I get your point on the "may as well be a DPS" bit, but then a counter argument would be, if the job is basically going to be a DPS class, as effective as one, and would provide a different playstyle than a DPS that some people would enjoy, what harm would be had if they added a support role?

So... basically what I'm saying is, using your train of thought, which I do not disagree with, if they made it no better or worse than another DPS through their buffs/debuffs, it would be providing a equal level DPS class with entirely different party mechanics some players might find refreshing and enjoy. I see no negatives to this. However in order for a support role to fit into a party set up, we'd either need to add them in a DD slot where it can only roll 1 support maximum (I.E you can still get 2x DD parties, or 1x support 1xDD), or increase the light party size to 5 or 6 to accommodate it.

At this point, with the 4/8 system so engrained into the game, I don't see a support type class working without some restructuring. Its not impossible, but there'd be a lot of balancing concerns to address first.

[Duelle]

Okay, I get your point on the "may as well be a DPS" bit, but then a counter argument would be, if the job is basically going to be a DPS class, as effective as one, and would provide a different playstyle than a DPS that some people would enjoy, what harm would be had if they added a support role?

It messes up party balance. DPS can be interchanged to a degree; a DRG in place of a MNK or NIN is not going to drastically change the party synergy because you have a class replacing another in a role. You're asking to add the equivalent of a fifth wheel, and one that would make putting together a party that much more of a pain.

Let's also not forget that "support" has a tendency (on top of being difficult to balance and being either useless or mandatory) of being less populated than tanks and heals, which means that 30 minute duty finder queue would become even worse if you had to fill 4 roles instead of 3. Even outside of DF you have the issue of still requiring said fourth role for raiding. And because of the established pattern of support being less populated, you have a very bad scenario in your hands. Look back to the past existence of princess bards and princess red mages in FFXI if you don't believe me.

if they made it no better or worse than another DPS through their buffs/debuffs, it would be providing a equal level DPS class with entirely different party mechanics some players might find refreshing and enjoy.

So you're asking to be different for the sake of being different. Not because it's a needed dynamic (because it isn't needed), not for the sake of improving gameplay, but entirely based on a desire to do something different from the trinity. That's not a good reason to make any changes or inclusions.

-------------------------------------------

At this point I have to ask "why?" Yoshida himself has talked about sticking to the trinity. Reasons as to why that's a good call have already been covered. Reasons as to why wanting to shoehorn a fourth role for the sake of being different is a bad thing have also been covered, but some people seem to either ignore the arguments or simply don't care for balance and parity between jobs. It's really mind boggling.

[BlaiseArath]

So you're asking to be different for the sake of being different

No, thats not what >i'm< saying. Read the post i quoted, and the first sentence of my post, it'll make sense. I was using their argument as a start point. Its not what I'm asking for at all, simply by applying the logic of the one I quoted to the argument of mine to show that it wouldn't really be a negative impact.

And if you have to ask yourself why, you are missing the concept of subjective fun, despite how some people feel "If its not fun then quit!" is an incredibly narrow and closeminded approach to games, I'm not saying rewrite everything, but adding more is rarely a harsh problem. You may not enjoy the idea of being a support class, but there are more than enough players who would. In a game entirely about the community and enjoyment, what harm, if balanced properly, is there in adding another type of roll that will just enhance the enjoyment of some of the community?

You may find it redundant, or even a little useless... but others could thoroughly enjoy the idea of providing a more support role. In the same light, you may not like being a healer, but other players find enjoyment in that role. Its not rocket science, and its purely a subjective thing much like fun. I think with how good the devs have done so far in the balancing act of jobs, they'd have no problem pulling off a Support role. Theres also one other subject of my post you might ave missed

At this point, with the 4/8 system so ingrained into the game, I don't see a support type class working without some restructuring. Its not impossible, but there'd be a lot of balancing concerns to address first.

So again, I support the Idea that as a 4 party system, Support/Debuff would have little purpose unless they specifically filled one of the 3 trinity places first and foremost... and at that point they would be too powerful. A "Full Party" raid though could easily be adjusted to be 1Tank, 2healers, 3DD and a Support... but releasing a job only useful in 8 mans would be silly and hard to level up. So yes, the party size would need restructuring to fit a support class, I'm in no argument there.

I also understand a support role could cause some events to need to be specifically re-tuned to adjust for those support jobs (Think how in XI, they adjusted some fights with the assumption Perfect Defense or Embrava were going to be used, and that made them hard/impossible without those abilities... creating a demand for specific jobs and specific buffs that excluded a lot). So yes, adding a support job can be introduced and implemented horribly and cause wide unbalance, but there are counter measures.

Say for instance, if you added a job that could increases Attack speed, Spell Speed, Skill Speed, Damage output, Defense, etc... basic BRD buffs in other games, but limit them by only allowing 2 to be active on a player at any given time regardless of how many support are in the party, you at least prevent "Bard rotations" Like what appeared in XI, another mechanic that hurt content.

Still, I'm not saying adding a support class or debuff class is absolutely needed for XIV, so don't think thats what I'm going for. I'm simply saying that despite how badly it could be done, there are right ways to do it.

[Duelle]

And if you have to ask yourself why, you are missing the concept of subjective fun, despite how some people feel "If its not fun then quit!" is an incredibly narrow and close-minded approach to games, I'm not saying rewrite everything, but adding more is rarely a harsh problem.

Balance trumps subjective fun, because while balance can allow for subjective fun, subjective fun doesn't always allow for balance.

You may not enjoy the idea of being a support class, but there are more than enough players who would. In a game entirely about the community and enjoyment, what harm, if balanced properly, is there in adding another type of roll that will just enhance the enjoyment of some of the community?

The crux of my argument is that it messes with party dynamics and group comps in a way that is detrimental to the community as a whole. You have to factor human nature into these sort of things, because you know the support classes will follow the trend of being the least-played yet balanced to being the most needed. That's not a good thing for the game in the long run. As I said, look back to princess Red Mages and princess Bards.

If you think uppity tanks or healers are bad, the aforementioned two monstrocities were worse by several orders of magnitude.

In the same light, you may not like being a healer, but other players find enjoyment in that role. Its not rocket science, and its purely a subjective thing much like fun.

Except healers don't create any of the problems a support role does. Healers, along with tanks and DPS directly affect the battle, which is why the three work off each other as well as they do from a design perspective.

I think with how good the devs have done so far in the balancing act of jobs, they'd have no problem pulling off a Support role.

You're missing the fact that the reason balance between the jobs is in such a good place is because they stuck to three roles and blended support aspects into the three roles.

While it has been shown in past MMOs that having a dedicated support role allows for much more complicated mechanics, (see RIFT) the major problem is in bottlenecking for queues. Adding a support role would require that they increase party sizes to ~6, (tank/heal/support/3dps) which then would become 12-14 in a full party, and having such LARGE groups is really unwieldy from both a designer and player perspective. (just ask Blizzard)
No matter how cool some of us think it would be to play a dedicated buffer/debuffer, there are 4-5x as many people who just want to do dps, and it's already well-known how bad DPS queues are in every MMO ever.


Additionally, depending on how the role is taken into account in high-end raid situations, the support jobs would become either obsolete in certain cases (having one that specializes in CC in a no-CC fight or vice versa, again see RIFT or EQ) OR functionally identical with redundant gameplay, making you wonder why they exist at all. (WoW players do notice when they don't have the full collection of raid buffs, but ask how much they care which classes they bring to a raid)

The only meaningful workaround would be to design encounters to permit for more than one strategy depending on which support you bring, and wow if that isn't asking way too much of any developer just to add another role.

As a BRD player from FFXI, I will be the first to admit that I love primary supporting, but it is an extremely flawed concept. I played BRD, which has enjoyed the advantage of having been welcome in 99.999% of all content FFXI has produced. Ask a RDM player how they feel, or PUP, or DNC, etc. Support roles inherently compete with each other, and have no place in modern MMOs where balance BETWEEN classes is valued. Support abilities are best when distributed among all jobs, especially in a way that all are useful but never required.

..and did I mention it's unpopular? Everyone needs a BRD, few want to play one.

Gonna quote this for emphasis. It'll get ignored by some, but I'll be damned if I don't try to help people understand why things work the way they do.

[Dhex]

People complain about trinity but it works fine.

I see what you're saying - and I agree, but it does whittle the range of potential the game has down to a very narrow and rigid system. FFXIV with it's roles right now is limited and I think they can loosen up a bit with encounter sizes, design, and group composition.

[Animarelic]

The question is how can they make support desirable? because of the mechanics support has to be able to fulfill 2 roles without breaking the game or making non hybrid roles obsolete. The only option I see would be to actually develop the cross system more akin to what XI's was. But that just seems like a very meticulous process Yoshi-P isn't trying to delve into.

[Roris]

It'd be interesting but the game really isn't built for it and I doubt Heavensward will change it, maybe by 4.0. The way it is now support abilities are spread all over every class, a lot of these are general use and can support everyone. Then there's also the synergy between classes like Dragoon and Bard, both Tanks supporting each other, and Monks supporting themselves.

I actually kinda like the way that works even if it could be expanded upon, still I wouldn't mind a dedicated buffer and debuffer. Dunno how it'd actually work say when you're soloing stuff doing leves and what not and DF queues would have to be changed to accommodate that extra support slot, that last thing sounds like too much work that could be worth it, but this game already puts minimum effort into a lot of stuff.

[Toodles]

Supports would just enhance the game is all.

And yes, Supports for the sake of enjoyment alone is a worthy reason for implementation.

It's a GAME.