Ninja seems a bit broken

[GunnarWolfram]

I did a rough simulation based on the numbers we know for damage and potency and auto attack and found that in an ideal world with no misses and no down time a monk will always out DPS a ninja because a monks Auto Attacks will always be greater than any other DPS class due to the 52% bonus in damage a monk can obtain. However the more a monk loses its grease lightning stacks the more even it makes NIN til a point where NIN will surpass it.

Bottom line: Monk will always win in non phase changing / low movement fights, but things even out the more a monk has to refresh GL3 and dodge attacks.

[Leonus]

I did a rough simulation based on the numbers we know for damage and potency and auto attack and found that in an ideal world with no misses and no down time a monk will always out DPS a ninja because a monks Auto Attacks will always be greater than any other DPS class due to the 52% bonus in damage a monk can obtain. However the more a monk loses its grease lightning stacks the more even it makes NIN til a point where NIN will surpass it.

Bottom line: Monk will always win in non phase changing / low movement fights, but things even out the more a monk has to refresh GL3 and dodge attacks.

I know mnk will generally always out dps nin, but can you explain the extra 52% bonus? Or is that relative to mnks 32% overall attack bonus vs nins 20% attack bonus? Cause if it is then that makes sense.

[Viridiana]

I know mnk will generally always out dps nin, but can you explain the extra 52% bonus? Or is that relative to mnks 32% overall attack bonus vs nins 20% attack bonus? Cause if it is then that makes sense.

27% GL
10% TS
10% DK
5% FoF

[Leonus]

Ah, I thought we were going straight off of gl3+FoF vs Huton+KotV/W.

So it boils down to mnks 52% damage buff vs nins 26% or so damage increase (dancing edge is -10% slashing debuff which equates to around 6-7% damage increase right?)

Anyway, this is good, maybe people can stop saying nin is OP?

[SeraviEdalborez]

27% GL
10% TS
10% DK
5% FoF

DK (and SE/DE for NIN) isn't a straight +10% though. It would be better to just compare what the difference is between the two; DK and SE/DE is the same, speed of Huton vs GL3 is the same. You're mostly comparing the damage of 42% (GL Snakes FoF) to NIN's 20% (Kiss) and higher overall potencies.

[Leonus]

But even with that, mnk should still come out on top, just less room for error on the mnks part to maintain GL3.

[Viridiana]

DK (and SE/DE for NIN) isn't a straight +10% though. It would be better to just compare what the difference is between the two; DK and SE/DE is the same, speed of Huton vs GL3 is the same. You're mostly comparing the damage of 42% (GL Snakes FoF) to NIN's 20% (Kiss) and higher overall potencies.

Granted, but I assume that's where he got the number from. The "-X% Resistance" thing seems to be weird. Like, if it affects dots for casters, why not for melee? Why isn't it a straight "+X% damage of ___ Type" instead? Would make things so much easier to compare. . .

[silentwindfr]

sadly i think ninja will be close, if not beat the monk actually, the difference of potency of the attack is really important, and the loose of tp seems less violent actually.

other point we loose of sight, monk have time where it loose GL, when in optimal situation ninja don't have this downtime. the difference of potency in the attack are not little, best damaging combo of the monk do have a potency of 520. where ninja best damaging combo is 620, i will not count that ninja have every 40 second a burst damage that monk can't make up (either raiton: 360 potency or Suiton + trick attack: 580 potency, this last will increase him damage of 10% behind)
same the dot have is higher of 5 potency on the ninja and feel more simple to maintain without burn your tp.

i will not give monk winner, since at same ilevel, my ninja with a weapon of 10 less ilevel beat it easily.

finally, i know that burst is not the most important, but the ninja burst can be quiet violent, what lack the monk sadly atm.

ps: however, the difference of dps between the two will probably close of 10 dps max anyway.

I don't believe that in a straight fight with little moving involved like to that mnk will loose to nin in damage.

I just don't believe that.

indeed the auto attack of the monk is almost at 90 dmg of difference with my monk (using the animus) and my ninja using the atma with +4 dex (only 2 book done)
however, the combo of the monk are weaker, more important only have 3 skill out of gcd. meaning most of him damage will come from the auto attack and the combo.

that where the ninja beat the monk, he do have the ninjutsu that out gcd. your ninjutsu, will be cycle like this every 60 second you will do Huton for maintain the speed buff. every 60 second you will do suiton (180 potency) for use trick attack (400 potency +10% damage for 10 sec) and every 60 second you will do raiton (360 potency) it will generally be Huton > Suiton > Raiton (on mono target).

another comparaison, the DoT, the monk and ninja have both 2 DoT:
- monk dot are 70 potency + 240 (40 potency on 18 second) and 20 potency + 250 (25 potency on 30 sec).
- ninja dot are 200 potency + 240 (40 potency on 18 second) and 60 potency + 300 (30 potency on 30 sec).

the combo too have a fair amount of difference:
- monk best damage combo : 520 potency
- ninja best damage combo : 620 potency

indeed the monk do have more buff +42% (+27% from GL, +5% from fire first and +10% from twin snake)
ninja only have him poison that will increase the damage of +20%.

but with soo much difference of damage in the skill, do the 90 of damage of more every 2 second will make up for the ninjutsu and other damage superior? i will leave the theorycrafter answer this. but like i have said, the difference in dps will probably be around 10dps. other point i haven't mentionned, ninja have no time of setup in comparaison of the monk, and i didn't count kassatsu with a GCD of 120 second that allows to relaunch a ninjutsu automatically critical. nor i did count the fact that fight that have little to no deplacement that will impact monk are quite rare.

it's nice to talk of theorycrafting and all, but it's better to not forget that they are theory... and reality is what we live into. most of the fight ask you to move and can leave you to loose GL having a huge impact on the monk dps... what it will not affect the ninja.

don't get me wrong i love both of them, but ninja will probably be better in mono target dps. don't forget that he have almost nothing for save him outside the skill we take from... the pugilist haha.

ps: did reach my day count of post... they really need to get ride of it :x

[ShaolinMike]

ps: however, the difference of dps between the two will probably close of 10 dps max anyway.

Hooray job balancing. I like the idea of them being close. Hopefully that will amount to less people jumping on the NIN bandwagon JUST because it does more DPS. Let people who truly enjoy MNK stay as MNKs without feeling like they're getting the short end of the stick. Let the people who like the play style of NIN be ninjas for that reason.

[Leonus]

I don't believe that in a straight fight with little moving involved like to that mnk will loose to nin in damage.

I just don't believe that.