Marauder needs a damage boost now ~

[KumaAkuma]

Lienn you talk a lot but I don't get what you want from the Mrd class and what you think that should make the Mrd unique. You keep saying people play Mrd like other classes, but what does it mean to you to play Mrd like a Mrd? You might have already said it in your previous posts but it's not very clear to me ><

[Lienn]

Lienn you talk a lot but I don't get what you want from the Mrd class and what you think that should make the Mrd unique. You keep saying people play Mrd like other classes, but what does it mean to you to play Mrd like a Mrd? You might have already said it in your previous posts but it's not very clear to me ><

Yep, i said. Its very simple what i want...i want the basic attacks. Just like ARC, MRD is a class based on basic attacks...all on it is based on basic attacks. So lemme point the main details:

TP: MRD don't have a TP generation action because yu vould get TP from groups of mobs...or some random monster just passing by. This is the basic of MRD TP generation. Only 2 AoE swings every 30 seconds is not enough...why not? Because its also the main way of healing. When you use bloodbath you never target the strongest monster unless its the only monster near...the idea is always having a fast way of pulling TP so you can hit adds.

Adds: Most just call it a curse...but IMO they are the strength of MRD. Its not a bulky class to tank...that's GLA role. MRD is bulky to endure multiple adds for short periods of time. These adds are MRD TP and MRD healing. They are the strength of it.

Enmity: Here we have the Warmonger...most just think "Why the hell using an action that causes berserk to monsters? They will just hit you harder...and worse...you will lock them on you!" Again, its where the basic attack come in...the most poweful defense of MRD (steadfast) will go down if you move...so he will need the AoE basic attacks to fight. Berserk raises attack but lowers defense...so both you and them will take more damage...more damage = more TP = even more damage from WS. This is why MRD don't need the berserk action WAR had in FFXI. Warmonger balances the damage dealt/taken of MRD, allowing you to keep the high DPS even while tanking stuff.

Also, Warmonger adds a temporary enmity bonus...that's why it has such long recast...because it not only locks on the monster but increase your enmity. With defender you're safe and, if steadfast come in, even better. This is why Full Swing is unacceptable with 1 min recast... MRD has native increased enmity actions because of warmonger...this enmity bonus is what let MRD tank while DDing...when you combo full swing and storm path with warmonger the enmity generated is crazy.

Orientation: Another point regarding basic attacks. How do you reorient MRD with steadfast up? Enduring march? No way...i'd be laughing if someone actually answered this. Enduring march is an extremely situational action, only useful if you need to step back 1~2 steps when you killed a monster and want to put a new one in the cone. Someothers might just say "Screw steadfast...it will be back soon enough". However, the correct is to change target...the basic attack will reorient you so the cone will be centered on it. Will it remove steadfast? Nop, it won't. The basic attack offer you the option of reorienting with steadfast up...but not anymore...you cannot "waste" a AoE action to just reorient anymore.

Murderous Intent? Why such dumb action is here? Getting less TP in exchange of crit bonus? Who would want it? Who...other than the dude who can, during its 30 seconds of effect, swing 3...5...7 times the axe in AoE, gaining reduced TP multiple times in addition of critical bonus...and talking about critical rate...which one has better damage bonus? Basic attacks or WS? As a hint i can point some old posts in this forum where people were discussing about the fact some think WS wouldn't even crit (which is not the case...they do crit...but the damage bonus is much smaller than basic attack crit).

STR: So, STR makes your WS much stronger, right? Nop. It doesn't affect WS damage. Only Attack does. You can have a dude with 12 STR ckull sunder for the same damage a dude with 174 STR do. So why STR? Basic attacks. The basic Attack is what put MRD STR in use. This is why it can have weaker WS than LNC or PGL and why the attack from axes are pretty low if compared to straight DD classes like LNC and ARC...because MRD uses STR to its fullest. But the other classes can have the very same STR, right? Right...but they don't have a basic attack that uses 1.5 damage. What this means? This means you can attack multiples enemies at same time OR attack multiple times the same enemy in one attack. Heavy Swing having a 2 swings animation isn't a random thing...you actually is dealing equivalent to 1.5 damage, which would means ~50% increased TP gain...if you have enough STR.

This is the difference from MRD to PGL ot LNC...PGL and LNC actually have their basic attacks aiming TP gain mostly...1~2 swings and that's it. Their damage output come from WS....from Attack. MRD, instead, is like ARC...the TP is generated from fast basic attack spam...or would you think trifurcate and multishot were magic? They're just basic attaks! ARC had the speed and raging strike for damage output and TP generation boost...MRD had the cone attacks and native increased single target basic attack for damage output and TP generation. ARC also doesn't had good WSs...the "best WS" ARC had was multishot...the difference STR does for basic attacks is obcene...you could see this at ARC easily...multshot a mob and then barrage it...barrage will give you 4 basic attacks as if you had raw STR. Same worked for simian trash, chaos thrust and all other multihit WSs...that's why they were that weak at start. That's why ARC focused on multishot. And MRD was the very same thing....its damage would come from basic attacks, not WS. This is why steadfast is like it is...its not a sentinel ot a foresight because MRD is meant to stay put a sec...the basic attack times...the period they store TP is the period steadfast is down, being then followed by a WS burst...This is why it has skull sunder and brutal swing turning cone AoE...the idea is to use basic attacks a while and then only burst a WS combo to finish monsters...2~4 WSs in a row...4 because of skull sunder, of course...now it might be harder due increased storm path TP cost...but if you use brutal you still can pop 4. Doesn't ARC often does the same? Yep, they do. They might not toss 4 WS in a row due their WSs TP cost, but the way of playing is exactly the same...spread multishot as 3 basic attacks and you can see MRD fighting. How much is the boost of raging strike again? About 50%? So ARC go ther and do 3 basic attacks with about 50% increased damage, then starting to WS. Who else can do this to a single target? The very same way, the very same bonus...just a bit slower because they want to be slower so something else can trigger? After 1.18...no one.

So, as conclusion...did MRD need GLA tanking actions for enmity? Nop. Did MRD need LNC actions for TP? Nop. Did MRD need ARC boosts for damage output? Nop. It had everything it needed...some kinda stupid like Iron Tempest or Barbaric Yawp...but what class don't have a few stupid actions? They revamped GLA...Rage of Halone and Ambidextry were the GLA's jokes...ARC still have farshot, quelling strike and arrow helix...so why bashing MRD ones? No need. It never needed those actions to play properly...until 1.18.

Anyway...i'm not talking about actions everyone knows how to use...trying to explain foresight here would be silly of me. But i can say without doubts that MRD was a complete class by its own. And this is why i'm asking basic attacks back...right now MRD is an ARC with 30~60 sec recast on light shot. This text could be much longer...but i'm sure now you guys can see how to play the old MRD...its not like you guys didn't know...its more like playing it as "pure MRD". This is why i say tight now you can't play MRD as MRD...because the way it was meant to be played is broken. You can DD, you can tank...youcan do all his actually very well as MRD still....but relying on other classes...its just a copycat now.

If you want an anime reference, right now MRD is Kakashi...it does can be badass the way it is...but he will never be Itachi because just 1 borrowed sharingan and a bunch of copied jutsus cannot make up to the real sharingan bloodline.

LOL...superlong post >< sorry ^^:

[Zarvlad]

This is the difference from MRD to PGL ot LNC...PGL and LNC actually have their basic attacks aiming TP gain mostly...1~2 swings and that's it.

Wait wait wait. I assume you also play Lancer and Pugilist to state that, right?

Just to make sure I understand your point:

Heavy Thrust: 60 sec recast
Pierce: 30 Seconds Recast
Full Thrust: 60 Sconds

Light Strike: 30 sedconds recast, consumes MP
Pummel: 30 seconds Recast, consumes MP
Flurry: 60 seconds recast

You seem to think PUG and Lancer could spam those at will which is not the case. Also keep in mind that lancer *is* the huge TP generating class, like FFXI's Samurai. and 1~2 swing of these is also enough for Marauder to start WSing.

This is why it can have weaker WS than LNC or PGL and why the attack from axes are pretty low if compared to straight DD classes like LNC and ARC..

Because, as you say, they are straight DD classes, while Marauder is not. Marauder has been designed as an hybrid.

But i can say without doubts that MRD was a complete class by its own. And this is why i'm asking basic attacks back...right now MRD is an ARC with 30~60 sec recast on light shot.

Remember those also had higher stamina use, you couldn't spam them as much as the normal swing, the real TP gain was spamming them against groups of mobs, one to one they were not optimal.

I also assume you have some archer experience; you do know Light shot is basically Archer's auto-attack (heck you had archer complaining about this), not an ability they can spam every seconds, correct?. Multishot has a 15 seconds delay (but bufferable), Heavy Shot 30. Thing with archer is that dammage is all what they have, pure offense and squishiness as trade off.

To make Marauders as powerful attack wise would make the class way to broken (Archer is OP enough already with buffable multishots), unless you forego all defensive quirks.

According to what you want here is (imo) the viable solutions I have in mind:

Shared cooldown delay on basic attacks, usage would reset auto-attack timer.
Basically, the return of the old system, without stamina. Problem is that it would make those atacks somewhat broken (they had higher stamina usage)

Reduced delay on basic attacks
All the jobs (bar archer) needs this to be honest anyways.

Higher TP generation from Marauders' auto-attack
This would be the way to balance this whole thing, imo. Would also make Murderous intent more appealing for Marauder (right now that skill is awesome cross-classing with multi-hit WS)

Keep in mind that a good Lancer will Comrade in arms, helping your own TP gain. The nature of the armoury system lets you, even encourages you to use invigorate.(please don't pull the Pure Marauder Card. The game by design is made for cross class skills use, not doing it is not taking advantage of the game design, even some LS have mandatory cross class skill requirements now. Solo play? Which job can 4-5star R40 leves at rank 40? Gladiator and Marauder that's it. We are awesome at soloing our stuff, no major tweaks needed...oh Archers can, but they die every two mob they kill, we don't)

Offence oriented Job
Jobs are coming in the future. Those jobs are supposed to specialise the classes for specific, fine tuned roles. Speculation goes towards Warrior and Dark Knight for Marauders. both offence oriented classes (look at the FFs in general not only XI).

--

Like it or not, Marauder will always stay a mixed defence offence class. Jobs is what will make them more defensive or offensive. Until then if you really want to spam high numbers to single and multi target in parties, by all means be an archer or a lancer.

If you want to stick to Marauder still, then your energies should be well more spent trying to figure out how to squeeze the DPS with what you have available, right now in-game instead of just lamenting on forum how the job is dead, useless, underpowerd, soulless.

I mean can you point me towards posts you made with actual Marauder data, strategies, builds, cross class optimization, etc? I would be very interested to see how YOU play YOUR Marauder, right now, with what the game gives you at the moment. What is your abilities/trairs builds? Gear setup? Attacks routine?

You claim to know the job inside and out, to know how to play MRD as MRD, then why not pointing out it's strengths and teach other marauders how to use their now "souless" job to it's fullest and survive in this "Archer-or-GTFO Darkhold" world?

[Noata]

I really think your upping the MRD class too much, I think it is fine just how it is. I do not know what rank your MRD is, but i can tell you as you lvl up the MRD gets plenty of attacks that dont cost that much tp. The mrd is made to deal area of effect damage while stationary. If your talking about the LNC's ability to out DPS it is most likely because your fighting 1v1. the PGL is a 1v1 oriented character. Specalizing in 1v1. so they easily can tank a single target. the MRD however, has a higher defense, and a good parry rate if they are stationary. when they let loose there AoE's they are capable of dealing more damage then a LNC, and able to keep TP up. It is all how you set up your action bar. the MRD can easily have high TP if you know what your doing. a group of three can easily give TP with just a broad swing, what moves you use from there on will effect your TP generation and consumption. I see alot of talk on this post about uping the auto attack. with the animation speed of the axe attacks you use. if dont right you can have almost no delay. if you just read about the classes description you get an idea on how they work. FFXIV is not about each class being equal. it is about everyone being able to be each class, and using the classes to accomplish harder group tasks by properly providing the needed service to the group

Archer - highest physical attack. Low defense, range based with slow auto attack.
Lancer - Second highest DPS provides group with benifits while debuffing the enemy.
Pugilist - Third/Fourth highest DPS with off tank Capability, Has two purposes, Back attacking or Off tank
Marauder - Second(sometimes)/Third/Fourth highest DPS can Tank or off Tank, Capabile of huge AoE damage. Strong vs Group mobs
Gladiator - Third/Fourth/Fifth highest DPS built to take a hit, capable of taking damage for high aggro pulling characters. Has great 1v1 tanking capabilities, as well as varied shield sizes depending on the type of encounters. DPS is low in bigger groups due to the lack of Time to build TP

The melee classes perform best at there roles, and DPS will vary greatly depending on equipment and your skill set. Archers will alwasy do more, they are geared for it. the Marauder is not meant to be the biggest damage dealer. They are the AoE dealer. they inflict damage on encounters. and there DPS will vary if they are not fighting groups of mobs.

i Looked over this and thought it would be best if I stated. This is my opinion that the class is fine how it is, and I do not mean to disagree with any of your points that could make the class better. I just believe the class is fine as is

[Rexus]

Yep, i said. Its very simple what i want...i want the basic attacks. Just like ARC, MRD is a class based on basic attacks...all on it is based on basic attacks.

I don't think jobs were 'based' on basic attacks, they just enhanced the way they played. Even if you take away every classes base attacks, they could still do their job.

PUG = Pummel for DD, Light Strike for Tanking
LNC = Full Thrust for DD
ARC = Heavy Shot for DD (Being able to reduce the Mobs TP will be missed...)
GLA = Heavy Stab/Slash for Tanking/DD (This was a big hit for GLA, but they don't NEED them on 4 second timers to keep hate... go figure.)

With 1.18 putting all those abilities on timers, each of those classes are still able to do their thing. I really don't believe basic attacks "made" the job, it was their abilities and WS's that did (same goes for MRD).

TP: MRD don't have a TP generation action because yu vould get TP from groups of mobs...or some random monster just passing by.

This is supplemented by abilities such as Invigorate and Siphon TP. Using cross-class skills is how the game was designed.

Its not a bulky class to tank...that's GLA role. MRD is bulky to endure multiple adds for short periods of time.

Not meant to tank...? Why does it have enmity generating attacks/abilities, and abilities that enhance Parry Rate/Defense? LNC is not a bulky class meant to tank, MRD was definitely meant to be one.

MRD has native increased enmity actions because of warmonger...this enmity bonus is what let MRD tank while DDing...when you combo full swing and storm path with warmonger the enmity generated is crazy.

Yes, MRD generates a lot of enmity. Aren't tanks supposed to do that?

STR: So, STR makes your WS much stronger, right? Nop. It doesn't affect WS damage. Only Attack does. You can have a dude with 12 STR ckull sunder for the same damage a dude with 174 STR do. So why STR? Basic attacks. The basic Attack is what put MRD STR in use. This is why it can have weaker WS than LNC or PGL and why the attack from axes are pretty low if compared to straight DD classes like LNC and ARC...because MRD uses STR to its fullest. But the other classes can have the very same STR, right? Right...but they don't have a basic attack that uses 1.5 damage. What this means? This means you can attack multiples enemies at same time OR attack multiple times the same enemy in one attack. Heavy Swing having a 2 swings animation isn't a random thing...you actually is dealing equivalent to 1.5 damage, which would means ~50% increased TP gain...if you have enough STR.

STR does increase WS dmg, but it is very minimal. I do hope that will change when the Physical Level/Attribute revamp comes around. MRD weapons have lower ATT than LNC weapons, yes. However, there are Axes with much larger parry rates... to help with tanking. I also feel MRD weapons have slightly lower ATT than LNC ones due to the fact that they are a AoE WS class.

MRD, instead, is like ARC...the TP is generated from fast basic attack spam...or would you think trifurcate and multishot were magic?

Going to leave out all the ARC stuff from quote...

Every class spammed basic attacks for TP gain lol. On any NM (after their adds died in 3 minutes, or less lol!), MRD's spammed Heavy Swing, LNC's spammed Full Thrust, PUG's spammed Pummel. ARC gets Multi-Shot/Trifurcate because it is a DD only job. You cannot compare MRD to ARC, at all.

But i can say without doubts that MRD was a complete class by its own. You can DD, you can tank...youcan do all his actually very well as MRD still....but relying on other classes...its just a copycat now.

MRD was not complete on its own, it would be gimp if you only relied on its abilities..... as would any other job (except for maybe ARC). I feel as though all you want to do is spam Broad Swing on MRD and in turn, spam AoE WS's all day. Honestly, that does not seem like the "right" way to play MRD... to me at least.

[Defmetal]

The problem now is that they nerfed Marauders ability to AoE with 1.18 by putting Full Swing and Broad Swing on such long reuse timers.

Well, it's not "the" problem it's "a" problem. The class still has a bad Delay to Damage ratio compared to LNC and GLA. IE Slowest Weapon + Mid Damage. That's not balance. Stop saying "the class is fine you just suck" No, that's bullshit.

With 174 strength and a +1 bardiche you'll still be outdamaged by a lancer with 120 strength and a regular lance. Get rid of your epeen and face the facts.

If you have to work your ass off, using food, buffs, cross-class skills etc, to be ON PAR with an average player of another class, who could easily use the same abilities and surpass you yet again, there is a problem.

What you guys have been arguing is that Beastmaster can deal the same damage as Warrior (without pets).

Marauder used to have one major edge over other classes - AoE spamming + AoE WSs. Now the AoEs are on a long reuse timer so it's much more difficult to be the AoE class - Archer can do that now, from a safe distance, at a faster pace than marauder.


If Marauder had higher damage, it would fix it's balance. You don't give the longest delay weapon moderate damage. That's just RPG facts y'all stop bitching about it how you can "make it work". You shouldn't have to "make it work" in an RPG it should just work. If I'm using a 4.2 second delay weapon, I should be hitting harder than someone using a 3.4 delay weapon, generally speaking (same level). That's how RPGs work.

Fast Weapons usually have less damage, but hit more often. Sometimes they crit more too if you play D&D.
Slow Weapons have higher damage, but hit less often, sometimes they crit less but for higher damage (D&D rules).

No amount of arguing will make you right if you think Marauder is just fine now. It's a broken class for a reason. And not broken because it's OP, but broken because it lacks a role identity. It's not the AoE tank anymore because of the 1.18 timers and inability to use Full Swing often anymore. It's not a heavy damage dealer because ARC and LNC outdamage it with faster weapons. It's not the ideal tank because it lacks a shield, although it has decent Parry, No evasion, but High HP. It works, I've tanked Ogre on marauder, it does work. However Gladiator is ideal if it can hold hate, period.

For damage dealing, Lancer is ideal, or Archer. Period. Marauder is never Ideal in FFXIV right now except maybe offtanking.

You know what happens to classes whose primary job is offtanking? Go look on WoW at Warrior tanking during Lich King, or Shadow Knights in EQ1. They end up having no one play their class, less loot begins to be made for them, and they remain a niche class.

[Zarvlad]

The problem now is that they nerfed Marauders ability to AoE with 1.18 by putting Full Swing and Broad Swing on such long reuse timers.

Well, it's not "the" problem it's "a" problem. The class still has a bad Delay to Damage ratio compared to LNC and GLA. IE Slowest Weapon + Mid Damage. That's not balance. Stop saying "the class is fine you just suck" No, that's bullshit.

With 174 strength and a +1 bardiche you'll still be outdamaged by a lancer with 120 strength and a regular lance. Get rid of your epeen and face the facts.

If you have to work your ass off, using food, buffs, cross-class skills etc, to be ON PAR with an average player of another class, who could easily use the same abilities and surpass you yet again, there is a problem.

What you guys have been arguing is that Beastmaster can deal the same damage as Warrior (without pets).

Marauder used to have one major edge over other classes - AoE spamming + AoE WSs. Now the AoEs are on a long reuse timer so it's much more difficult to be the AoE class - Archer can do that now, from a safe distance, at a faster pace than marauder.


If Marauder had higher damage, it would fix it's balance. You don't give the longest delay weapon moderate damage. That's just RPG facts y'all stop bitching about it how you can "make it work". You shouldn't have to "make it work" in an RPG it should just work. If I'm using a 4.2 second delay weapon, I should be hitting harder than someone using a 3.4 delay weapon, generally speaking (same level). That's how RPGs work.

Fast Weapons usually have less damage, but hit more often. Sometimes they crit more too if you play D&D.
Slow Weapons have higher damage, but hit less often, sometimes they crit less but for higher damage (D&D rules).

No amount of arguing will make you right if you think Marauder is just fine now. It's a broken class for a reason. And not broken because it's OP, but broken because it lacks a role identity. It's not the AoE tank anymore because of the 1.18 timers and inability to use Full Swing often anymore. It's not a heavy damage dealer because ARC and LNC outdamage it with faster weapons. It's not the ideal tank because it lacks a shield, although it has decent Parry, No evasion, but High HP. It works, I've tanked Ogre on marauder, it does work. However Gladiator is ideal if it can hold hate, period.

For damage dealing, Lancer is ideal, or Archer. Period. Marauder is never Ideal in FFXIV right now except maybe offtanking.

You know what happens to classes whose primary job is offtanking? Go look on WoW at Warrior tanking during Lich King, or Shadow Knights in EQ1. They end up having no one play their class, less loot begins to be made for them, and they remain a niche class.

Most of that post seems to be about AoEing being one of the main issues....but, what about single targets? Archer only have Widevolley for main-AoE, we have brutal swing, skull sunder, brandish and storm's path. Just requires the TP which leads me to:

Agreed with the delay v. dammage ratio needs to either be tweaked or set with higher TP gain, as I stated in my earlier post.

Also stated that job might be their solution to this (It was stated that classes will eventually be more made for solo adventuring, while Jobs tunes for Party dynamics), I also recall them talking about multi hit abilities, so having double-attack exclusive to Warrior Job would fix both the Dammage v. Delay and TP generation issue.

Edit: add the Steadfast/Enduring March suggestion I made in a [dev]Tagged post in this forum and we the MArauder would be more viable and enjoyable. Btw, that thread needs love and likes and +1s

What do you think?

[Lienn]

Well, i was explaining the original MRD mechanics since Kuma asked me to. Obviously original class mechanics does not include cross-class actions. But i knew such long post would catch attention. :/

If even after all this people cannot see why i say MRD mechanics is similar to ARC and not PGL and LNC, then there is nothing else i can say...

But its like Zarvlard say...ARC does need reduced recast also, because it also does had its way of fighting damaged too. However, ARC still has trifurcate and the mutishot recast was adjusted to still fit raging strike recast, which made it slower, but still working. This is the difference regarding MRD...MRD does is broken right now.
About my build, its posted at MRD builds topic. I did a short explanation regarding it there already. About my current build, its already non-existent. If you check out my character allotment at at lodestone you will see a tank/mage allotment instead of a MRD allotment...because i respect and like MRD enough to not use it as a copycat class. If i'm going to play GLA so i will play GLA...my MRD won't be subdued to the point of being a copycat...with this build i do could still play GLA as MRD...but i won't.

However, when i'm talking about LNC and PGL, you did not understand...i'm not saying PGL and LNC need 2~3 swings to start WSsing...they need 2~3 swings to have 3000TP. This is the basic difference. Their damage output come from WS mainly...basic attacks for them is strictly for TP generation. This is why they have no problem having pummel/full thrust with longer recast.

And yes, i'm not complaining about this just for MRD...IMO the basic attacks changes were a mistakes as a whole. Actions like Broad swing, pierce, light stab and the mage darts does should to follow weapon delay...some others, like Heavy swing, flurry and heavy stab, should be even faster...some just need effect adjusted...like light strike, which only needs the buff effect lenght increased to fit new the action recast...other situational actions like pummel and full thrust can just stay exactly as they are...they need an individual analysis to adjust it to its effect. Basic actions that are dused by its effect does should have longer recast while basic actions that focus on damage does should have much faster recast.

And Rexus, if you think MRD wasn't complete then you never actually tried playing it...you were just another copycat since the very start...that's probably why you might not care much about the changes now. Like i said to your previous post in this very topic and said at my last post again...you can play GLA as MRD...you can play LNC as MRD...you do can even be badass doing so...but if you cannot see the class differences you cannot use to its fullest.

[Zarvlad]

Well, i was explaining the original MRD mechanics since Kuma asked me to. Obviously original class mechanics does not include cross-class actions. But i knew such long post would catch attention. :/

Sorry but original class mechanics, by Game Design, factored in cross-class. The whole Armoury system relies on this. This is subject to change with Jobs, now.

ARC still has trifurcate and the mutishot recast was adjusted to still fit raging strike recast, which made it slower, but still working. This is the difference regarding MRD...MRD does is broken right now.

If even after all this people cannot see why i say MRD mechanics is similar to ARC and not PGL and LNC, then there is nothing else i can say...

Again, Archer is a pure DD class, Marauder is an Hybrid, don't expect Marauder to have the same mechanics without a tradeoff.

If you check out my character allotment at at lodestone you will see a tank/mage allotment instead of a MRD allotment...because i respect and like MRD enough to not use it as a copycat class. If i'm going to play GLA so i will play GLA...my MRD won't be subdued to the point of being a copycat...with this build i do could still play GLA as MRD...but i won't.

Not sure to understand, you are not optimizing your stats for the sake of some kind of uniqueness? Mind elaborating?

However, when i'm talking about LNC and PGL, you did not understand...i'm not saying PGL and LNC need 2~3 swings to start WSsing...they need 2~3 swings to have 3000TP. This is the basic difference. Their damage output come from WS mainly...basic attacks for them is strictly for TP generation. This is why they have no problem having pummel/full thrust with longer recast.

Why comparing with Lancer? again, lancer is designed to be a TP machine. Also, note that Pre 1.18 Full Thrust has the same stamina as the normal attack, would deal half the damage, would generate twice the TP. Until they balance this you have to rely on Invigorate II, which does a world of difference to generate TP on Marauder. Then again, only using designed mechanics.

And yes, i'm not complaining about this just for MRD...IMO the basic attacks changes were a mistakes as a whole. Actions like Broad swing, pierce, light stab and the mage darts does should to follow weapon delay...some others, like Heavy swing, flurry and heavy stab, should be even faster...some just need effect adjusted...like light strike, which only needs the buff effect lenght increased to fit new the action recast...other situational actions like pummel and full thrust can just stay exactly as they are...they need an individual analysis to adjust it to its effect. Basic actions that are dused by its effect does should have longer recast while basic actions that focus on damage does should have much faster recast.

I agree to an extent. Recast should reflect the Pre 1.18 stamina use else we might end up with OPed basic attacks. And we don'T want that, don't we? Maybe 1-2 seconds added to the Weapon dealy would do the trick.

And Rexus, if you think MRD wasn't complete then you never actually tried playing it...you were just another copycat since the very start...that's probably why you might not care much about the changes now. Like i said to your previous post in this very topic and said at my last post again...you can play GLA as MRD...you can play LNC as MRD...you do can even be badass doing so...but if you cannot see the class differences you cannot use to its fullest.

Now, there. Personal attacks and name calling will get you nowhere but only will undermine your credibility. You post was interesting to read until that very part. That part gives (me) the impression we're all sailing in a sea of Wrong and you'd be the only remaining beacon of Right. That part make you sound pretentious and condescending, which I strongly believe is not what you want people to feel, correct me if I am wrong.

I cannot speak for Gladiator, but saying you can play LNC as MRD is flat out wrong, sorry. Having both classes at 50, I can assure you the dynamics are quite different, if you try and squeeze the best out these classes. I see your lancer is still bit young, get to a rank where you get comrade in arms, II, twisting vice and invigorate II and it will be very different. I'll gladly elaborate on this if you request so.

[Rexus]

Let me preface this by saying I am not opposed to changes in delay or timers for MRD. I'd welcome it, sure. However, I don't think it is needed.

@Defmetal

So you want MRD to be as good of a DD as LNC, while still being able to tank better? That isn't balanced at all. In the broad spectrum of things, MRD is balanced... most people just choose to look at their DPS compared to ARC/LNC and say "it's gimp!".

LNC have the highest dmg weapons in the game, in addition they have abilities to increase TP gain and attack. They should do the most damage (per single target), or be equal with ARC. These two classes are the pure DD's, so it makes sense for them to be better DPS than MRD.

I'm going to have completely disagree on GLA always the being ideal tank. GLA tanking is a safer way to go, for sure. However, you can hold hate just as fine (or better due to DPS) on MRD while making fights go faster. That seems ideal to me.

When you are fighting 3-4+ mobs at once, MRD is still king in DPS. Their timers are not a detriment as long as you are killing the mobs at a steady pace. If you take 2 minutes to kill 2 mobs, you are doing it wrong, and MRD will start to look like gimp shit.

@Lienn

How the hell do you play MRD now? Are you talking about killing shit in leves? Because if you are, I'm about to have an anuerysm. When you play MRD, do you do Dungeons/NM's with only MRD abilities? Or do you use abilities from other classes to support a certain role you're filling?

EX: When you're trying to DPS, do you not bother with Invigorate, Siphon TP, Raging Strike, Ferocity, Hawks Eye, Still Precision, etc? When tanking do you not use Obsess, Provoke/Taunt, Sentinel, Emulate, Rampart, Accomplice, Featherfoot, Decoy/Diversion, etc? Do you not equip Cure/Sacrifice or Second Wind?

Without those abilities, you would either have a REALLY hard time DPS'ing/Tanking dungeons, or just flat out not be able to. I could kinda see you being able to DPS on Goblin/Mosshorn, but once adds are dead... you'd pretty much have the DPS capability of a GLA.

This is how I see the difference between classes:

LNC: TP king, first tier DPS and ability to give minor support 'buff's to the party.
PUG: Second Tier DPS/Offtank, can tank but evasion needs to be buffed for it to work better on higher level mobs.
ARC: Pure DPS. No ally buffs, no mob debuffs, one defensive move, ARC should be on top or just below LNC in DPS.
GLA: Obvious tank, excels at mitigating damage to reduce enmity loss.
MRD: Obvious tank (to me), excels at generating enmity with DPS and mitigating some damage. Also can produce high DPS in the correct situation.

I'm really confused as to why I am a copycat. How is MRD supposed to be played in an endgame situation?