Red Mage - A DoM Tank Job?

[Duelle]

Duelle, there's also nothing wrong with people wanting RDM to be what it actually is: a supportive hybrid.

Once again, you're missing the point. You can make your RDMs in console FFs buffbots because again, you're limited by turn-based combat. Turn-based combat simply does not allow for mixing the three main disciplines that make up a Red Mage because you're playing to use your turns efficiently to win the battle.

Real-time combat makes it possible, but requires the job to be designed with that from the ground up while allowing mechanics that create synergy between the three elements of the Red Mage. This is where FFXI dropped the ball because they basically gave the job weak melee, weak white magic and weak black magic with nothing to create synergy between the three, just like it was designed in the console FFs. That's the reason why it was mostly useless and had to be turned into a refresh-bot and healer to get spots in parties.

Enspells was a step in the right direction but they never took it further, much to the job's detriment. The saddest part is that it was the ideal way to let the job close the gap between it and the other melee DPS. Simply put, if a brute force guy deals 20 physical damage with a sword, a red mage would deal 10 physical damage with a sword and 10 magical damage through a sword enchant (the 10 extra damage could also come from a self-buff that allows the Red Mage to hit harder or even weaving spells with sword strikes). The gap is nonexistent despite the brute force guy being physically stronger than the red mage, and that's the idea that should be followed.

[GalkaBikini]

Duelle, not all FFs are turn based. And RDMs white and black magic was not weak. o_O; RDMs magic not the best, but it's a heck of a lot better than their melee. And seriously, why on earth would you bridge the gap between RDM melee and a real melee? That is not how you balance a hybrid......... Sigh.

Red Mages never have, and never will be, on par or anywhere close to on par with a real melee class. You'd think after 25 years of Final Fantasy, people might finally get it?

Rosalynd, if you are playing FF5 that way, you are playing it inefficiently. You have no reason to have both a RDM and a WHM in your party in FF5, for one. Obviously, you can play however you want, but the fact remains that you your party setup isn't optimal.

[Duelle]

Duelle, not all FFs are turn based. And RDMs white and black magic was not weak.

Almost every FF that's ever had Red Mage is turned based. FF Tactics did not have RDM (as I absolutely hate Tactics Advance and its sequel, I don't acknowledge their existence), XII International had basically a set of "unique" spells that needed a name so they plastered the Red Mage name on it, and it was NPC-only in FFIX.

RDM had access to lower tiers of what BLM and WHM had access to, so yes it had weaker magic as a whole.

That is not how you balance a hybrid

Hence why I said "simply put". It was more to drive the point home of what a RDM should be capable of in concept. Of course, I am more than willing to aim for the mythical 5% (RDM being capable of dealing roughly 5% less DPS than a "pure" DPS like DRG or MNK) for balance purposes. Additionally, utility provided by the job would be limited in some capacity in order to keep it balanced against the other jobs. That approach is very feasible (ret paladins and enhance shamans in WoW are a good example of how that works) and would fit RDM without being iconoclastic. It does mean RDM would have to land in the DPS pool but would still have the three aspects of sword, attack magic and heals.

Red Mages never have, and never will be, on par or anywhere close to on par with a real melee class.

Again, you can't look at the job as a middle-of-the-road hybrid. That model won't work in an MMO, even more so in a trinity-based MMO. I've repeatedly said in the past that RDM needs to be taken to the core concept behind the job: a guy with a sword that casts magic. Once you have that down you can build it in a way that makes sense without inhibitions caused by how it was presented in the console FFs.

They already said musketeer won't come. It's a relic of the past, it's time to move on.

I don't recall them ever being specific about musketeer never coming. Mind presenting a quote or linking an interview?

[Kuwagami]

I don't recall them ever being specific about musketeer never coming. Mind presenting a quote or linking an interview?

I was checking that just now. Actually they said during a live letter in april that the gunner job wouldn't be what people expected (with the vocal people always asking for musketeer every time they could, one can only assume) (http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...oner_pets_new/)

With Rogue being in Limsa it was also a further step to get rid of musketeer (3 combat guilds in the city already), but yeah, the sentence should have had "for now and probably won't at all"

[GalkaBikini]

Almost every FF that's ever had Red Mage is turned based.

FF1 is turn based. FF3 is turn based. FF5 is not. FFXI is not. FFXII is not.

RDM had access to lower tiers of what BLM and WHM had access to, so yes it had weaker magic as a whole.

You said weak, not weaker. There is a big difference there. You haven't changed much since the FFXI forums... so difficult to talk to. I mean right after that you go on to talk about what "RDM should be in concept" and then say it could be within 5% damage of a true melee DPS. How can you seriously think that is OK? The class that you keep describing is not Red Mage, period. You need to figure out a name for this class you keep trying to turn RDM into, so you can call it that instead. And no, RDM is not comparable to Ret Pally or Enhancement Shaman from WoW, those 2 classes are REAL MELEE DPS. RDM is a hybrid. Shaman and Paladin in WoW haven't been hybrids since Vanilla.

Actually, I think the class you're looking for is Mystic Knight. I don't know why you keep confusing that for RDM.

[Duelle]

You haven't changed much since the FFXI forums... so difficult to talk to. I mean right after that you go on to talk about what "RDM should be in concept" and then say it could be within 5% damage of a true melee DPS. How can you seriously think that is OK?

Again, keep in mind we're talking in the context of a trinity MMORPG, where generalists get the boot 9 times out of 10. In such situations changes and adjustments have to happen for certain jobs and classes to be possible and feasible to use in content. SCH went through this and came out fine. After being relegated to DPSing, WAR became a tank and was given the tools to excel at that role. I've kicked around ideas to turn Samurai and Beastmaster into tanks to create a tank roster and give those jobs a place here within the trinity. By the same token, RDM would have to be less jack-of-all-trades and more "guy with a sword that casts magic".

The class that you keep describing is not Red Mage, period.

You're either arguing for the sake of arguing or have put on blinders on this topic. The defining aspects of RDM are not its being a generalist, but the fact that it's a sword & magic hybrid. Doublecast doesn't make a RDM. Enfeebles don't make a RDM. Refresh and Haste don't make a RDM. Sword, black magic and white magic rolled into one are what make a RDM.

And no, RDM is not comparable to Ret Pally or Enhancement Shaman from WoW, those 2 classes are REAL MELEE DPS. RDM is a hybrid. Shaman and Paladin in WoW haven't been hybrids since Vanilla.

WoW pallys and shaman have been and continue to be hybrids. Speccing ret doesn't take away your ability to cast Holy Light and Flash of Light, nor does it remove Blessing/Hand of Protection, Divine Shield, Divine Intervention nor the buffs from casting Judgment. What happens is that your utility is limited in terms of effectiveness and reliability. Spamming Flash of Light to help heals is going to drain your mana pool within a couple of casts and won't heal for the same amount you'd get from a real healer. Post-Cataclysm you can't remove certain debuffs. You're not gonna replace a tank or healer, but you're not supposed to. Your ret pally or enh shaman is basically DPS with utility and access to stuff outside of their role while performing well enough at their role in the trinity to be worth their spot. And as mentioned before, this sort of approach is perfect for Red Mage.

Actually, I think the class you're looking for is Mystic Knight. I don't know why you keep confusing that for RDM.

Mystic knight is built around casting elemental spells through a sword. That's it. It can't heal, it has no utility, and the general concept is limited to a small niche. That's why that aspect was rolled into RDM when the FFXI team created enspells.

[GalkaBikini]

The defining aspects of RDM are not its being a generalist, but the fact that it's a sword & magic hybrid. Doublecast doesn't make a RDM. Enfeebles don't make a RDM. Refresh and Haste don't make a RDM. Sword, black magic and white magic rolled into one are what make a RDM.

How many times does it have to be said? RDM is a hybrid white and black magic user, who CAN do very mediocre melee damage. Where, in all of that, is a class that can do 5% less melee damage than that of a real melee DPS class?

And LOL, have fun healing yourself for 2K on your ret pally when things do 10 times that amount of damage. I'm starting to wonder if you even actually play video games, honestly.

[Rosalynd]

You may as well give up man, he is to busy looking at things using mathematical efficiency from previous SOLO FF games and applying his stigma to what he thinks it should be here.

[GalkaBikini]

Rosalynd, its the same in FFXI - and besides, why would you completely ignore SE's vision for the class?

[Rosalynd]

Rosalynd, its the same in FFXI - and besides, why would you completely ignore SE's vision for the class?

A: XI had a release stigma that impeeded the red mage for the duration of the game, the same sort of stigma that paladins and shaman suffered in vanilla WoW. Though in an odd compliment to WoW, their community got over that stigma, you clearly have not.

B: XI's vision of classes was heavily influenced by the community, such as ninja tanks. Not to mention that XI butchered the red mage more thoroughly than XIV just recently butchered the Dark Knight.

C: This is an entirely new FF game with its own spin on classes (evidenced by the butchering of the Dark Knight, Bard and Summoner), the red mage could end up fighting in melee using a rapier in one hand and a magitek shotgun / pistol in the other (shoots magic damage based bullets) and as long as they call that a red mage, it is a red mage.