A plea for 3.0 and beyond: Job Customization

**Teslo** · 11-17-2014 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Mirron

I really hope they don't add a talent tree or the like to this game. I've played in many games with them, and they honestly rarely feel like they actually add anything. The way that it's set up now allows everyone to be balanced arguably. Crossclass skills do add some variance I suppose, but there is only so much they should add.

I generally agree with this, but there's a lot of homogenizing going on currently. Cure/Physick. There's literally no difference. Why am I able to cross-class Physick as a WHM or Cure as a SCH? There are some cross-class skills from classes that you just don't ever take. Ruin? And some that are completely necessary like Swiftcast.

I don't really want to see a complete free-for-all when it comes to cross-classing. Don't get me wrong, I love customization, but balance goes out the window when you do that. I loved the subjob system in XI. I had a frkin blast as a WHM/DNC, dual-wielding hammers and Hexa-Striking the crap outta things. But it wasn't even close to a balanced game. There's no way I would have been able to do WHM/DNC in any kind of party, or current content. But it was fun.

The system in FFXIV doesn't currently allow for this kind of build. The skills/spells are built to work well with the classes they go with, and would either be completely useless or completely overpowered on other jobs. Not to mention you'd run in to the same issue where everyone would be taking the same abilities. All DPS classes would pretty much have to take Raging/Quelling Strikes, Blood for Blood, and Internal release.

I really think that one of the major mistakes that people make when talking about XI is assuming that it was a Trinity system game. It wasn't really intended to be that way, but at the time MMO'ers were mostly coming from Everquest which gave birth to the whole concept of the Trinity. When looked at in that light, the subjob system made a ton of sense. So called "Nonstandard" job makeups became an interesting addition to a team. It didn't really become "Trinity" until NA's started playing, insisting Ninja was a tank because it had an overpowered spell that made it evade all damage. :P

Unfortunately XIV is falling somewhere a little odd. It's trying to follow up with the sweeping success of WoW by appealing to an audience that's used to homogenized classes and easy-win gameplay, but a lot of the more faithful players are from XI which was decidedly more hardcore, and offered a lot more options for customization with ZERO homogenization. I certainly have no answer to this issue, but I trust the devs to make the right calls. They have a lot of input (Such as the article a couple posts back from this one), as well as player input that they DO follow up on.

Yoshi-P has stated many times that he wants to re-do the class/job system. That it's a relic from 1.0 that has no place in the current game. I actually suspect we're going to see this change sooner than we think. Please look forward to it? ;P

**Mirron** · 11-17-2014 11:21 AM

Sure, but there are only so many skills they can allow to be crossclassed. I don't get the point of Cure/Physic either honestly, it seems kind of odd and is worse on White Mages, though I don't think one over the other matters much as a Scholar. And that kind of homogenization will happen no matter how many options there are. Two options or one hundred, that's how it goes typically, people do the best to make the most "efficient" of builds.

**Teslo** · 11-17-2014 11:29 AM

Yep, unfortunately once the elitists get their hands on it they run the maths and determine that these abilities are the best and everyone must have them and if they don't they're noobs who shouldn't play. The only real way to get out of this rut is to get away from Trinities once and for all, and we see how well that went in XI...

**Delily** · 11-17-2014 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Akiza

Restricting your characters ability to grow with leveling and gear mechanics is the simplest definition of Vertical Progression. Horizontal Progression is increasing the power of the player's character and it comes in two forms open and closed. An Open Horizontal Progression there is no leveling and class system there is just an ability tree where Player Characters have a large arbitrary number of skill points to spend in categories ofMelee, Range, Magic, Pet, Tank and Healing to build their Job it's entirely character progressive. Closed Horizontal Progression is like WoW where the skill trees are locked behind the classes and ESO is in between the two extremes. Horizontal progression is mainly used as an alternative to the leveling system and answer the end game gear grind that plagues every mmorpg.

There is no open and closed horizontal system. You're combining concepts needlessly. When it comes to the skills you character has access to, it's either a class based or skill based system. When it comes to your character's growth, there's horizontal or vertical. Horizontal involves levels, whereas with vertical, it's some form of quest to get your skills. You can do a class based horizontal game, and you can do a skill based vertical game. All horizontal progression would mean it that rather than gear, there would be something else we would be working towards, such as skills.

And there are other ways to answer the gear grind.

**Verlyn** · 11-17-2014 12:44 PM

"Lack of Class Uniqueness" is such a vague and loaded statement. I think simply asking everyone to vote if that's their issue glosses over just about every possible problem.

Anyway. There can be a middle ground between "Can Do Darn Near Everything" and the current system of "Stuck with One Play Style No Matter What You Do." It's not even that difficult to achieve...I'm surprised everyone's so against that.

And for what? Because they think it's an "Illusion of Choice"? Hate to break it to you, but every single customization system ever created is an illusion and will have optimized solutions. The difference is, the successful ones will have more than one.

**kaynide** · 11-19-2014 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Akiza

-snip-

You're thinking in the right direction, but you're over complicating things in your definition. Horizontal progression, in its purest form, is simply giving the player (by endgame) a very wide spectrum of skills/equipment/whatever that are not inherently better than each othe. It's not about having skill trees or unlocking things, even though most games utilize unlocking or "shops" to keep new players from getting overwhelmed.

The Megaman or Bioshock games are good examples of this. In MMOs the closest thing would probably be the Guild Wars series, especially Guild Wars 1 (max level was 20).

Truth be told though, most game systems do it both ways. For example, the weapon and armor system in Monster Hunter is designed so that certain types of gear is more effective against certain types of foes (a la megaman), but obviously there is still vertical grind in getting to the next tier of each specific type of weapon/armor.

**Kio** · 11-19-2014 03:18 PM

Customization sounds nice on paper but it just doesn't work in application. Once someone finds the optimal build for anything it will be expected that everyone else follows suit.

Also, in 1.0 (pre Yoshi-P era) there was only the class system, which allowed for players to freely attach any skills they have acquired from other classes to their current ones. It basically made everyone into the same exact build with no specialization and the entire system fell apart. Such as, there were no need for the healer class conjuror to be around since everyone could heal themselves just as well as a single person could. It wasn't creative or free form like you imagine, it was horrifically boring and frustrating to do anything with. Especially since you were a black sheep if you didn't level all the things! If you are the type of person whom rather focus on one class or role.

**LandricFrey** · 11-20-2014 07:14 AM

Compiled input from the community and clarified(I hope) my original post.

Thread: A plea for 3.0 and beyond: Job Customization

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