Keep past content out of Cash Shop

[Malric]

I agree with the OP.

There are many past event items I could not get and accepted that because I didn't play the game then.

It's motivation to participate in these events, knowing I'll gain something that is only gettable during the event.

Devalues the event when it's just another cash shop item and takes away from the intrinsic value.

Not so special to have an item that obviously dates you as a veteran player when any new player can get that same item without putting any work towards it.

I'm sure people with the legacy chocobo from FFXIV 1.0 would feel far less pride riding it when they see someone with the new player leaf riding one fresh off a cash shop.

[Krr]

Extra credits even did a video on this, check it out of you want to know more. The video is more concerned with F2P titles, but explains the basic idea of trying to attract big spending players which, alienates those that "don't buy it" over time.

The Extra Credits video isn't relevant here because the "whale model" has to begin at the first step of game design and can't be tacked on to an existing game.

Also EC has a notorious reputation for being clueless as hell about everything and generally out of touch with reality. Like the time they did a video on how wireless internet will run out of bandwidth in 2013.

Then again, the entire games industry is out of touch with reality so it makes sense that they get used as a spokesperson for a lot of concepts.

[RaddCuban]

The Extra Credits video isn't relevant here because the "whale model" has to begin at the first step of game design and can't be tacked on to an existing game.

Also EC has a notorious reputation for being clueless as hell about everything and generally out of touch with reality. Like the time they did a video on how wireless internet will run out of bandwidth in 2013.

Then again, the entire games industry is out of touch with reality so it makes sense that they get used as a spokesperson for a lot of concepts.

While the general opinion of their commentary can be argued about endlessly. There are two things about this make your "It has to be there from the beginning," argument questionable. A. This game already has a healthy loyal subscriber base keeping it afloat. B. Other P2P games have made the shift, admittedly while transitioning to F2P. What is there to stop SE from attempting to make that very same shift without going F2P?

Also, that episode which's predictions did not come was a long time ago using data provided by the FCC and research into the problem. Before you say "Their predictions were wrong so nothing they have to say has any worth," please look into any and all changes to the situation that may have come in the interim two years. >_>

Satire aside...

First of all, please do not use the quote system for "satire" as it is very misleading. If you wish to attempt to ridicule someone do not completely twist their words and then have only two words vaguely implying what you have done.

The argument that PS4 players couldn't get them, and now it's being charged for? Tough luck. There's all kinds of things that operate like this, you know, back in the real world. Game is cheaper through your favorite company (whom you always give your business), and only for a day, but you weren't able to make it in? Too bad, you may never see that deal again. I could make a list of comparisons, but you get the idea. Common business practice to have things that are at one point free, or cheaper, then charge for them down the road.

I don't know where you live, but at around where I'm from companies try to treat their new custormers well, often even better that their current ones, in order to attract more new ones. Promotional deals are implicitly only there for a limited time, but this was never implied to be promotional. Both new customers as well as old are entitled to voice complaints over sudden changes to services they enjoy.

Where's all of the people complaining that they can't have a Moogle outfit, because they weren't able to go to Fan Fest, or pay 20 dollars for a premium stream on top of their oh-so-woeful subscription fee? It's literally the same logic. You pay a sub fee, and you should have access to a Moogle costume, by your logic. Yet you don't see ANYBODY complaining about that. Think about that.

The Moogle Outfit was from day 1 known to be a promotional item. Who is to know that it would not return again for future FanFests and their premium streams? If the GDC Trial earrings returned why can't the Moogle Outfit return? In fact given that we have already extablished a precedent, it would be expected to return.

I'm almost positive someone made a post earlier in this thread, about how eventually they WOULD stop selling past event items like that. If they didn't, they aren't contractually obligated to tell you these things. Simple.

Then why are we obligated to sit down and shut up when they suddenly change things?

Finally, when did you become their business consultant? This is why I tend to try and stay as neutral, or developer/business side of these arguments. You are in no position to tell them they're making enough money. Gamers like to put a veil on like business politics don't, or shouldn't touch video games. You're an adult (I hope), you should know that this, like anything else, is subject to these things. Your money is important to them, but your sub-fee doesn't mean they can't seek alternate avenues of money-gain. You have to put on your business-person thinking mind if you're going to talk about something directly involving it. And my business-person mind tells me that, even if we're doing good, we can always do better in terms of profit. That's not wrong, that's just trying to be as profitable a business you can be. As far as morals go, this is HARDLY reaching territory of other companies.

People take SE for granted.

No one is taking anything they've done for granted. People just don't take kindly when they notice blatant ateempts to fleece them out of money. It is their jobs as product and service providers to reconcile the consumers demands with their ability and willingness to provide for them. If a paying custormer is discontent or offended by a product or service it is within their rights to complain. The fact that other customers are fine with the product or service or are annoyed by the complaints does not invalidate that right until the provider steps in and silences the criticism, which in the past has proven to be a terrible idea for others. Why should we as consumers have to think about what is best for the business and not what is best for us the consumer if the business does not extend the same olive branch?

[Malric]

Why should we as consumers have to think about what is best for the business and not what is best for us the consumer if the business does not extend the same olive branch?

The correct answer would be never.

It is not a consumers job to determine if a business is viable or profitable.

It is our job to purchase, consume, compare and decide if we want to continue this trend.

As an entertainment provider these forums serve as a communication of this success or failure to the business we patronize.

It is then their job to weigh the potential gains vs. losses and make business decisions.

If people did not voice their displeasure, FFXIV ARR would not exist and FFXIV 1.0 simply would have died.

Input from displeased customers is just as valuable (if not more so) than pleased ones.

[Roris]

snip

The people that could get those items might only glamour them on those seasons, others might have found a better glamour since then. Others might have gotten them simply to collect them and might wear them from time to time but don't use those glamours or any glamour in general because they don't like crafting the prism every time they get an upgraded piece of gear if they even have crafting classes leveled, if not they might not like having to buy them. There are many factors as to why people use and don't use a specific item for vanity that really have nothing to do with this thread's topic at all.

Second, you say though luck for PS4 players and are quick to dismiss them with some childish satire, but recently they mentioned some crafting related changes made specifically for them, so they obviously do have them in mind. I know, crafting related stuff is more important than inconsequential vanity right? Even though vanity is pretty much on top of the list of crafting stuff and a good amount of crafting items added each patch are just vanity which admittedly even you seem to acknowledge. You also keep using the tired "ok kid, real world" argument and mention how lots of stuff is limited time only in the real world, which is fine and dandy because in 1.0 seasonal events worked exactly like that. There were no vendor NPCs to sell last year items so people were already used to that. So, why bring them back at all in every other 2.0 event up until this year's Halloween event then?

They were always upfront about which items would be limited time only, about which items would be removed and which items would stay. Dated gear, the Dalamud horn, Manderville earrings, White Ravens, the first goobbue, those and more are all gone and most people are fine with them being limited time items. Now I have seen some threads asking for a way to get some those items in ARR, some understandably make more sense to make a comeback like the Chocobo mask to go with the new suit, other items not so much. Either way most people in those threads seem to be understanding of them being limited rewards for people who stuck with the game back then and would have no qualms with those items staying limited. I myself having most of those 1.0 items including White Ravens would have no qualms with people getting a chance at obtaining them nor would I have qualms with them staying limited, though I'm sure people would be upset if White Ravens did end up in the shop instead of being obtainable in say a Minstrel's Ballad or even Savage, but hey business.

The moogle attire is first and foremost an in game reward alongside the other physical goodies visitors got. Everyone has indeed already thought about that and I'm sure most people understand that, just like they understand minions being tied to other physical merchandise. You buy the box of cereal because you're hungry and you also get a toy or a sticker, though admittedly the toy and sticker itself might be the main reason to buy that box for some. In the case of the premium stream, it's an in game item to go along with the digital HD stream, it's as simple as that. They've done that in the past with the CE, the physical edition includes all those physical items and also some in game rewards, while the digital CE is just digital in game items because obviously no physical anything. Like some people have mentioned previously, it's a way to get some of those in game items once all the CEs run out, because CEs are limited by definition and item codes are linked to an account and untradable once used. It might be similar in concept to a cash shop but still not quite the same because once again, there's that physical quantification that comes first. If there hadn't been a physical CE at all or Fanfest wasn't open to the public and was stream only then sure, but that's clearly not the case at all.

I don't think anyone is mad over any of this, the general feeling is disappointment. Personally I'm still laughing at how desperately some are trying to justify the cash shop simply because their favorite company and MMO is doing it. By the way you also didn't answer my other question, why not simply add all this cash shop stuff right from the beginning? Everyone keeps saying how they're all about making money as a business right? So wouldn't they be making more money if they launched with a cash shop right from the start? Makes sense as a business to consider those alternate avenues well before the relaunch and then implement them right at launch rather than wait an entire year, an entire year they now have wasted and could have been making additional profits all along. Instead, they announced it out of the blue a week before a big patch, and not simply any patch but two patches before the expansion, not even the middle 2.0 series patch. I'm all about anyone making money so I don't know why you think morality comes into play or why using the good old "yeah well other companies charge more so you should be glad!" is even relevant.

It's funny how no one ever answers this, why not add the cash shop right at launch? It's a simple answer, though I'm sure that whenever it'll be answered, it'll be as dismissive as your post. You might say "well they didn't have the resources to set up the page and the shop" but the Mog Station was there from day one. You might say "well it was very basic and they didn't have the time to expand it" so sure, I'll give you that, then why not simply state their plans well in advance while they worked on it? Plans can be, you know, mentioned in advance. Plans were mentioned clearly all around 1.0s development cycle, they might not have stuck with them but they were always stated. A simple "we'll be looking into adding a cash shop around patch X featuring past seasonal event items" around launch would have sufficed, not just dropping the bomb at Fantest a week before 2.4.

And no "it's their game so they do what they want!" will not suffice.

[RaddCuban]

The correct answer would be never.

It is not a consumers job to determine if a business is viable or profitable.

It is our job to purchase, consume, compare and decide if we want to continue this trend.

As an entertainment provider these forums serve as a communication of this success or failure to the business we patronize.

It is then their job to weigh the potential gains vs. losses and make business decisions.

If people did not voice their displeasure, FFXIV ARR would not exist and FFXIV 1.0 simply would have died.

Input from displeased customers is just as valuable (if not more so) than pleased ones.

Pardon me, I completely agree. I was trying to throw the other side a bone since they are already doing mental double arabian dismounts left and right to justify their outrage at our discontent.

[Avisaia]

I'm not really sure how I feel about it other than... If they offer to buy the chocobo hat, I will definitely buy it. Unless they offer past items to be quested again, I'd be okay with some of them returning in the cash shop.

[polyphonica]

why not simply add all this cash shop stuff right from the beginning? Everyone keeps saying how they're all about making money as a business right? So wouldn't they be making more money if they launched with a cash shop right from the start? Makes sense as a business to consider those alternate avenues well before the relaunch and then implement them right at launch rather than wait an entire year, an entire year they now have wasted and could have been making additional profits all along. Instead, they announced it out of the blue a week before a big patch, and not simply any patch but two patches before the expansion, not even the middle 2.0 series patch.

They've been selling premium items from the get-go in terms of CE, pre-order bonus, pack-in with the soundtracks, and then Fantasia potion sets, added Retainer service, and the recent fan fest set (in-person and $20 premium streams). They also commented many months ago that the current way of selling Fantasia was limited and they were going to work on a more flexible shop in the future, so this wouldn't be a big surprise to people who had been following the Live Letters (which is where this too was announced).

But I mean, it's not so mysterious why they've been phasing this in gradually as the game gets more acceptance/popularity. Cash shops generate this kind of controversy, but once the game has enough momentum, it becomes less of a big deal. Given that Blizzard is doing it with WoW, I'm sure S-E's shareholders would eventually ask why they're leaving money on the table.

This isn't saying people shouldn't voice their opinions or complain. I am, though, still a bit surprised that this is the upsetting part, as opposed to the increase in items that will never be obtainable in-game otherwise.

[Roris]

They've been selling premium items from the get-go in terms of CE, pre-order bonus, pack-in with the soundtracks, and then Fantasia potion sets, added Retainer service, and the recent fan fest set (in-person and $20 premium streams). They also commented many months ago that the current way of selling Fantasia was limited and they were going to work on a more flexible shop in the future, so this wouldn't be a big surprise to people who had been following the Live Letters (which is where this too was announced).

But I mean, it's not so mysterious why they've been phasing this in gradually as the game gets more acceptance/popularity. Cash shops generate this kind of controversy, but once the game has enough momentum, it becomes less of a big deal. Given that Blizzard is doing it with WoW, I'm sure S-E's shareholders would eventually ask why they're leaving money on the table.

This isn't saying people shouldn't voice their opinions or complain. I am, though, still a bit surprised that this is the upsetting part, as opposed to the increase in items that will never be obtainable in-game otherwise.

Oh for sure, it was always indeed clear this game was headed towards an inevitable cash shop right from the start, as much as some people denied it back then. It was however just an assumption back then and was never clearly stated until now, the plans and signs might have always been there and clear for people who knew how to identify them, but for others to see them being straight up confirmed out of the blue just a week before 2.4 is kind of a surprise.

I personally do have a couple of issues with some items being removed and never being obtainable in game whether by purchase with gil or by completing quests, especially those that already had the antecedent of making a comeback like seasonal items up until this Halloween event. On the other hand I also don't mind other items being limited time only because like I mentioned, there are a lot of 1.0 items that aren't obtainable anymore, so the antecedent was already there. However, that time it was established well in advance, they gave a warning plenty of months ahead and a clear list of which items would be removed. This time however, it came without a warning a week before a major patch. They had already well established the precedent that previous seasonal event items would make a come back each year, they did so at least 5 times if not more for every seasonal event since ARR's launch, only to suddenly remove them from this year's Halloween event and therefore from every seasonal event afterwards without mentioning anything about it before Fanfest.

Introducing this slowly in phases is exactly like the good old boiling frog metaphor. I've said this before, I'm sure if they mentioned this since 1.X it would have generated as much controversy as now, but I believe it would have also been better accepted due to 1.0s financial situation in general. As a consumer at least I'd like some sort of notice well in advance of what's going to happen, though sure shareholders are what's more important company wise and I'm sure they've been asking for a cash shop ever since 1.0. It's just that, had they straight up mentioned their cash shop plans well in advance along with their plans to remove items from in game and move them into the cash shop, and given a list of exactly which items would be removed, it would have been slightly more palatable.

[Malric]

I am, though, still a bit surprised that this is the upsetting part, as opposed to the increase in items that will never be obtainable in-game otherwise.

I think a lot of the "anti-cash-shop" people share a pretty common position on this one.

"It always starts with cosmetic stuff!" (which is true)

One can argue over the philosophy of cash shop games vs. p2p until the ends of the earth.

It won't change the fact that many people came to this game because it wasn't one.

Many people leave games because of them (WoW included)

SE will try to break it in just like every other company ever has, they will be no different.

Starts with cosmetics, then it'll be mounts because those don't have an effect on game.

This will move to other things that don't "really" effect game play like housing furniture.

Then it'll be small boosts to things like rested XP or low level only buffs.

In time it becomes things like raid/loot cooldown reset scrolls so they get the hard core crowd's support.

After that everything becomes fair game.

Gear, Levels, Boosts & pots with separate cooldowns.

And the cycle continues...

Not all cash shops offer all of this (some offer way more), but I've never seen a game stop at cosmetics either.