Apparently trying to help is being rude

[Anapingofness]

I think what set him off was your phrasing/tone, especially the "Then you should choose another job" line.
The advice was good and you certainly meant well.
However, it's easy for people to misunderstand your intent via text since we do not have audiovisual cues.
^^ Just keep that in mind when you offer advice and hopefully you shouldn't run into these frustrations.

[Bluevann]

I cannot find any nicest way to say this, but I have seen much nicer ways to phrase advice than yours.

The trick to give good advice is to repeat in your head what you intend to type, and ask yourself if that wouldn't offend you, were you in their position.

Wouldn't you be offended being told to change job because you won't do something that you think is wrong (since clearly, they thought your advice was wrong. Not saying it was, but it's what they believed)? I would be offended.

Always try to be in other people's shoes before typing your advice, and you'll walk out with a happy party and lots of commendations. It worked for me last night with a healer in Haukke HM.

The rules of thumb for giving advice, a sort of unwritten etiquette if we want to call it that is:
1: Don't give unasked advice, when what the person is doing is not causing failure. You cannot really compare a slower DPS to a healer who won't cure I or a paladin who won't flash, because those latter two lead to wipes, whereas the first case does only in rare situations such as endurance-based boss fights.

2: Never, ever, ever start the advice with an imperative tone, "you must" or "you should". "You could" or "Would you try and see if that's better?" are more friendly.

3: Most importantly, at the beginning of the advice, ALWAYS ALWAYS start with "<playername>, I hope this won't offend you, but...", or "Please, don't think I'm trying to be an ass, but.." or "Not to be rude, but I think you forgot Shield Oath." etc. Putting a ">_<" in there, as a "please-don't-hurt-me-I-mean-well." gives usually a positive impression too.

(Also, psst... a little secret... "cat grin (=3)" emoticons give a very annoying and irritating tone to the sentence they're put in. They actually pay people to make studies on this kind of stuff; crazy huh?)

[Shiwayari]

Sorry but this doesn't make sense. Why would that be the first thing you say in the dungeon? Clearly his response is to that line anyway so that doesn't matter. Besides, the timestamps give it away...all of those things were said at the same time.

Why does it not make sense? I usually don't go "Hello" in dungeons anymore because I'm lazy. The only thing before that is 2 other people talking I don't remember who anymore. Like you said his response was to that line, so I don't understand why you think it doesn't make sense. (?)

Dude, you were acting like a dick throughout the entire conversation. The whole arguement happened because of your tone. It is entirely on you and you should feel bad.

Thank you, I've felt bad enough about it not run another 20 runs to grind some vanity gear like I planned today. I get my tone might have sounded rude, but from the replies here it seems 95% of the players think this was the worst tone I could have possibly chosen, and to be honest I find this a bit sad. I don't understand why I can't bring the same point across with 4 words instead of 20. Everyone seems to actually want to try interpret what I said in a rude way.

(...)
The trick to give good advice is to repeat in your head what you intend to type, and ask yourself if that wouldn't offend you, were you in their position.

(...)

Hm, a totally agree with you, this is what I always try to do. But sometimes I tend to forgot this, I'm only human and make mistakes too.
But, I think it is human nature to not want to hear something you are doing wrong. I cannot think of any way, any situation, where anyone hearing this "advice", put it as nicely as you will, will not be offended at least on the first impression. But is it not also a goal as a grown adult, fellow player, playing a game, to not take everything so seriously? What might seem rude at first impression, if it helps me be better in the end, I'd say the one giving advice has done a good deed.

The thing about emoticons is new to me.. to me they lighten up the mood of that sentence, without that emote it would seem even worse to me. It was an attempt to not sound so serious.. I guess that didn't work?

(...)
1: Don't give unasked advice, when what the person is doing is not causing failure. You cannot really compare a slower DPS to a healer who won't cure I or a paladin who won't flash, because those latter two lead to wipes, whereas the first case does only in rare situations such as endurance-based boss fights.

2: Never, ever, ever start the advice with an imperative tone, "you must" or "you should". "You could" or "Would you try and see if that's better?" are more friendly.
(...)

I don't agree with 1. at all. The outcome does not justify the way you do it, in my opinion. Take the example you gave, if you put that DPS in the shoes of a healer, and that would cause a wipe, then that is just as much wrong to do as a DPS as it is as a healer. One leads to a wipe, one leads to a longer run which is less noticable, if both do really bad maybe the amount of extra time needed would even be the same, i don't know.
Basically, I would never say to anyone "You aren't doing it right, but because it doesn't have as bad of an effect as it would have on a different job, it is ok."
Also, if a person is already asking for advice, I think the need to give advice is far lower, because they already know they need to do some research. Generally, I think, really needed advice is almost never asked for. If people have to leash out at me for trying to help them, I'd rather be frustrated for a day like this and make one more player play a bit better than be one of the other 10000s of players that don't give even the slightest.. about how good or bad someone else is doing.

2. <- that much I definitely got from this case, now I just need to remember next time.

(Please note this is all thinking about the player is intentionally doing bad, I do not mind players in practice. )

... this char limit is getting on my nerves =/

[Moqi]

I usually don't go "Hello" in dungeons anymore because I'm lazy.

You might wanna start with this then...

Different discussion, but I don't feel it contributes. Some can say "Hello" to me and then be the nicest person I ever met. They can also say "Hello" and then be the worst person I ever met. I doesn't give me even the slightest insight about the other person. The only thing that tells me is that there is a chance they have not yet run their 50000th dungeon run, and have not gotten very tired of saying "Hello" every single time yet.

What it tells you is that they have manners, which is what this whole thread is about. You don't say hello to someone when you meet them, it's rude, there's no other way to say this. And if you're rude at the beginning, I wouldn't be surprised if you were in the middle of the run too.

Make a macro for it (or just drag the one SE already made in your hotbar), use it while the healer casts protect. Same thing at the end for final greetings while people are rolling on loot. It's a 0 effort move and will put everyone in a better mood.

[EmpressCelene]

LOL. "Apparently trying to help is being rude."

Oh Dear. Seeing from that chat conversation that you posted. It seems you were rude yourself even though that may not have been your "intentions"....

Perhaps you should reread what you wrote and possibly think it over on how to rephrase your "help" lines.

Your effort to post this is absolutely a waste of time.

[Azure_dragon-]

Hi, I'm the guy you crossed off in blue. I have to say you were clearly being rude to the BLM throughout the entire dungeon. You could have given him the advice he needed to hear in a more causal way, but instead you wanted to be an arrogant jerk about it. I have been in your situation countless times and I'd never tell another player to "switch class." I can't even believe you ran to the forums expecting everyone else to back you up. Please learn to talk with other players or "switch to an solo rpg."

[Shiwayari]

Hi, I'm the guy you crossed off in blue. I have to say you were clearly being rude to the BLM throughout the entire dungeon. You could have given him the advice he needed to hear in a more causal way, but instead you wanted to be an arrogant jerk about it. I have been in your situation countless times and I'd never tell another player to "switch class." I can't even believe you ran to the forums expecting everyone else to back you up. Please learn talk with other players or "switch to an solo rpg."

I am sorry you had to experience this, I have not worded what I said in a nice way. Also, I did definitely not "want" to be an arrogant jerk about it. I wanted to give him a suggestion how to do better, and he clearly said he did not want to do that. I then tried to suggest he play a different job not because he sucks but because if he keeps doing that he will most likely encounter more situations like that.
It was not meant to be "You are to stupid to play that job, play a different one", It was a response to his answer which was "I don't want to play this job the correct/better (call it how you want) way", and my respone was meant to mean "If you don't want to play it the correct way, you should try a different job, maybe that will be more fun, at it would also help you avoid situations like this".
I do not think that was a wrong suggestion, I do not think it was rude either. The wording was rude, apparently. I was trying to offer him a way to enjoy the game more. Why is that wrong?

I'm not trying to be rude to either of you. You both insulted me with clearly offensive words. Maybe it was my "fault" for speaking in a bad tone. Now you make this post, trying to tell me i was "trying to be an arrogant jerk". No, I was not. Now can we put this behind us and stop insulting?

You might wanna start with this then...

Different discussion, but I don't feel it contributes. Some can say "Hello" to me and then be the nicest person I ever met. They can also say "Hello" and then be the worst person I ever met. I doesn't give me even the slightest insight about the other person. The only thing that tells me is that there is a chance they have not yet run their 50000th dungeon run, and have not gotten very tired of saying "Hello" every single time yet.
Or maybe a different reason.

Congratulations for the worst post in here, that is rude if anything, thank you for trying to make me feel bad. If you were trying to be funny, I'm sorry but you failed.

Others are actually contributing to the discussion.

[ExHeroKid]

... Different discussion, but I don't feel it contributes. Some can say "Hello" to me and then be the nicest person I ever met. They can also say "Hello" and then be the worst person I ever met. I doesn't give me even the slightest insight about the other person. The only thing that tells me is that there is a chance they have not yet run their 50000th dungeon run, and have not gotten very tired of saying "Hello" every single time yet.
Or maybe a different reason.

It's still an etiquette thing like when someone in your party or FC says:
"BRB WC" (obviously taking a deuce, comes back)
"Back"
Everyone else > "Welcome back!, WB, wb"

In game manners yo, it's just weird.

But seeing >Hello! at the start of something is better than seeing:
"Sup turds" (First thing I Saw when I did a DF Levi EX run with 4 others in my FC, needless to say we didn't win, guy was the MT)

Also I switch up the intro every run, doesn't always gotta be hello D:

[Shiwayari]

It's still an etiquette thing like when someone in your party or FC says:
"BRB WC" (obviously taking a deuce, comes back)
"Back"
Everyone else > "Welcome back!, WB, wb"

In game manners yo, it's just weird.

But seeing >Hello! at the start of something is better than seeing:
"Sup turds" (First thing I Saw when I did a DF Levi EX run with 4 others in my FC, needless to say we didn't win, guy was the MT)

Also I switch up the intro every run, doesn't always gotta be hello D:

Maybe not so different discussions. I don't really make it my thing to follow all the etiquettes I know, everyone does it, maybe its nice.. I like to be open minded. It saves me pressing 7 buttons, and saves 3 other persons reading another line of chat which contains 0 information. Maybe that's a bit funny... maybe that thinking is one reason why most think I was being rude in the OP. Well.. one cannot satisfy everyone, so be it.
Sometimes, if I had a good day, I might even say hello in a DF party.

What it tells you is that they have manners, which is what this whole thread is about. You don't say hello to someone when you meet them, it's rude, there's no other way to say this. And if you're rude at the beginning, I wouldn't be surprised if you were in the middle of the run too.

I feel a bit different, like I said someone saying "Hello" to the group personally doesn't tell me anything, might as well not have said it. It doesn't tell me they have manners, I've seen enough rude situations, may they have done greetings at the start of a content or not. If at all, if someone says "Hello" at the start, I might be slightly more inclined to think they will not be rude, but that's not a given. I don't think if had said "Hello" at the start of this run, the reaction would have been any different.
It takes a lot, a lot, a lot of talking to a person to understand them fully, greeting, or not greeting, there can be so many reasons as to why people do or dont do it. It is completely indifferent to me.
I try to have a nice friendly run and not harass anyone (guess i failed this time) and try contributing to the community, with or without words.

[Aegys]

OP, you had good intentions, but your tone was rude.

[14:57] YOU: You should reread your job skills <BLM>.

It may be true that he/she has no understanding of the skills, but a comment like that is insulting. An alternative could be: "Might I give a suggestion for your rotation?"

This is what prompted his response:

[14:57] BLM: pardon me?

Then you gave him a command. Not a suggestion. A command:

[14:67] YOU: Start with fire III

There is a difference between "Start with fire III" and "You should start with fire III", or "Starting with fire III gives blah blah..."

The first is a command (if you hadn't notice, people online don't like being told what to do), the second is a suggestion, and the third is an explanation. From there, it went downhill.

Had you initially approached it a different way, I'm sure that BLM would've reacted differently.