[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Kurokikaze]

The carrot on the stick is getting more customization as you level up. In FFX and FFXII, the Sphere Grid and License Board are available right off the bat, but you can't completely fill either of them up right away. You get to assign a few points in the beginning, and then a few more each time you gain a level. It's steady, constant progression, rather than staggered, gated progression.

You bring up a good point.

Edit: WORK IN PROGRESS. Someone help me come up with traits/skills/buffs etc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...kaze01/wip.png

[Elcura]

Along with this system, I would like it if basic jobs could still advance, and those advancements would be used in cross-class skills.

I say this, because while the current cross-class system is... underwheming, it's a good idea and opens up a lot of different potentials in terms of builds and playstyles. My fear is that once specialization happens, the basics go away.

Basics in this case being the basic jobs. I personally always feel it's a waste to throw away stuff, but I'm not against re-doing it if absolutely necessary. With that said, should basic jobs advance along with specializations and advanced jobs, you could get a deep system that allows for plenty of customization.

Being able to switch specializations without great penalty (or none) I think is needed. As FF Online's hook (in a sense) is being able to experience everything without starting over.

In the end, specialization skills can only be used on that spec, while basic skills (such as ones you get from PUG, CON, etc) can be used on all jobs regardless of spec. Currently the motive to level jobs high is to be more versatile, and I like that the progress I've made on one job could help the job I want to play.

Another thing that worries me generally about this is SE's ability to design useful skills. Of course, every job has filler skills and useless trash, but in XIV I see a lot more useless skills and WS than useful ones. This is likely a side-effect of cross-class, but the skills seen are quite lacking in imagination and even more in utility.

Edit: As for one of the systems suggested last page, I think that a specialization should be accessible from certain jobs, but having two different types of WHM depending on what class you choose to get there is an unncessary step. Leave that stuff for the specialization tree to handle. I like the idea conceptually, that a WHM that came up from a THM is different than a WHM that came up from a CON, but that's a lot of fiddly design that's somewhat unnecessary.

[Kurokikaze]

Along with this system, I would like it if basic jobs could still advance, and those advancements would be used in cross-class skills.

I say this, because while the current cross-class system is... underwheming, it's a good idea and opens up a lot of different potentials in terms of builds and playstyles. My fear is that once specialization happens, the basics go away.

Basics in this case being the basic jobs. I personally always feel it's a waste to throw away stuff, but I'm not against re-doing it if absolutely necessary. With that said, should basic jobs advance along with specializations and advanced jobs, you could get a deep system that allows for plenty of customization.

Being able to switch specializations without great penalty (or none) I think is needed. As FF Online's hook (in a sense) is being able to experience everything without starting over.

In the end, specialization skills can only be used on that spec, while basic skills (such as ones you get from PUG, CON, etc) can be used on all jobs regardless of spec. Currently the motive to level jobs high is to be more versatile, and I like that the progress I've made on one job could help the job I want to play.

Another thing that worries me generally about this is SE's ability to design useful skills. Of course, every job has filler skills and useless trash, but in XIV I see a lot more useless skills and WS than useful ones. This is likely a side-effect of cross-class, but the skills seen are quite lacking in imagination and even more in utility.

Edit: As for one of the systems suggested last page, I think that a specialization should be accessible from certain jobs, but having two different types of WHM depending on what class you choose to get there is an unncessary step. Leave that stuff for the specialization tree to handle. I like the idea conceptually, that a WHM that came up from a THM is different than a WHM that came up from a CON, but that's a lot of fiddly design that's somewhat unnecessary.

The Base Class progress along with the Advanced Class. If you hit 50 PLD and reset your points you're now a 50GLA. Think of it like this "Gladiator-Paladin" or "Gladiator-Dark Knight". Riot Blade will be usable on either spec but not on another class.

Difference from how it works now:
Abilities that are learned while progressing Gladiator (some basic WS, generic buffs) can only be used by Classes that branch off from the base with a line drawn at a center level that says "any skills beyond this point cannot be used by anyone else".

Yeah I agree Elcura, execution is not SE's strong point. I've seen one too many things in update notes that at first I'm like "!!!!" but then "....".

[Elcura]

The Base Class progress along with the Advanced Class. If you hit 50 PLD and reset your points you're now a 50GLA. Think of it like this "Gladiator-Paladin" or "Gladiator-Dark Knight". Riot Blade will be usable on either spec but not on another class.

This much I don't mind, more or less.

Difference from how it works now:
Abilities that are learned while progressing Gladiator (some basic WS, generic buffs) can only be used by Classes that branch off from the base with a line drawn at a center level that says "any skills beyond this point cannot be used by anyone else".

This is the difference for the most part. Let me try to illustrate what I'm thinking better (I did this on BG already, lol).

You have a 50 GLD that can turn into a DRK or PLD. You progress with DRK and/or PLD like you would intend them to. You gain skills for that specialization, and those are usable by GLD and all GLD related jobs (though mine was limiting in that only PLD could use PLD skills, and DRK could only use DRK skills).

But let's say, while leveling PLD or DRK, that your GLD grows at an equal or slower rate. So you could be a 50 GLD/50 DRK or 55 GLD/60 PLD. Whatever it is, that much doesn't matter. But the skills you gain for your GLD, and your GLD only (these skills aren't related to either DRK or PLD) could be used on any job. Say GLD got an ability to raise defense from all angles, you could use this on GLD, DRK or PLD.

But! If you were to use PUG now (and say PUG turns into MNK or THF), you would be able to use said GLD ability on PUG, THF, MNK, DRK, or PLD. However, skills you get from MNK or THF, are useable only on PUG, MNK or THF, and not on GLD, PLD or DRK.

Essentially, what it boils down to is you playing a specialization you want, getting skills for that and for the basic job that comes along with it as well as the ability to cross class BASIC skills.

I say all this, because I hate the idea of a class falling to the wayside. Besides that, even with your proposal, if you went from 75 DRK and wanted to repec to PLD, you would be a 75 GLD at some point. I think it makes sense, given what you said if GLD still gains its own skills. The difference being, that these skills are cross-class.

Edit:

And to add a little more on why I like cross-class abilities, it's because that progress feels tangible. The progress I made on MRD can be seen when I play THM or PUG. And while these abilities aren't always super useful or necessary, they do fill up slots and can help you further achieve your role and goal. Gaining defensive abilities from MRD isn't necessary, but then again neither is wearing any gear (I kid), but the fact remains that it's nice to see your progress like that.

And while this should remain relatively low key, it's a good boost to have.

[MysteryG]

A well crafted post! There's some really great ideas listed there.

Personally, I'd be happier just leveling different classes. I like the ability to switch between different classes on a whim. Just because I specialize my Conjurer as a healer, I suddenly block myself from being able to play as a Black Mage? No thanks.

I think just tweaking the existing system to function more like the subjob system would grant a clear benefit to certain classes; adding not just abilities, but stat/trait boosts from other classes. Anyone could run a Whm/Drg, but to be a good healer, it made more sense to have a caster as a sub due to the stats. I don't have a many solutions on how to make it better/different from XI though, so I'll refrain from suggesting it properly.

[Kurokikaze]

Yeah I see what you're saying. Though, I feel they're going to have severely limit what the base classes learn: shift most of the good stuff into specs and leave generic abilities on the base that can be cross-classed with no limitations in regards to rank.

The main thing that I want to avoid, as I keep saying, is the overreaching that is going on.

[bersha-sensei]

Somethings stinks......

Oh it's this idea. Can you please take it back to FFxi...thanks.

I support you friend, I not like the idea of ​​specialization, because if you-CON-and go a-BLM-CURE going to have, and if after being BLM, WHM want change? how? going to be very upset, that he would be the same, a-CON-

I prefer to give you to choose what you want.
It may be giving you a button. FFXIV weapons specialist <-> Job's classics.
so if you want to keep it current system or change it as often as they can. light can still manage change depending on what weapon you equip your classic job. like the example I put in a post

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-s-and-pvp-pve


is a bad post... ¬¬ i not good post

[Elcura]

Yeah I see what you're saying. Though, I feel they're going to have severely limit what the base classes learn: shift most of the good stuff into specs and leave generic abilities on the base that can be cross-classed with no limitations in regards to rank.

The main thing that I want to avoid, as I keep saying, is the overreaching that is going on.

Well, when the theorycrafting and head in the cloud stage ends, the real design begins. No matter what we say, no matter how good the idea, it doesn't mean a thing without good execution.

Over-reaching would be bad (if I understand what you mean... probably not), but the abilities shouldn't be ground-breaking. They should be by-products of playing the job you want to play, but still useable on another class so that if you do switch, your progress as a character is kept intact. The knowledge you gain as a CON/WHM isn't suddenly forgotten and lost to the winds until you decide to return. It is always there, and aspects of that knowledge appear when you play other jobs.

I think the problem with skills in XIV is that you gain a skill every 2 ranks. If they spread out the rewards more, they could make them more substantial and desireable, rather than giving us useless ability II (THE USELESS EDITION).

Edit to the above guys:

lern2read.

Kuro already said you could switch specs.

[Killirz]

Here are some of my recent thoughts on this idea:

1) At level 10 for each of the base jobs, have an ability that is very identifiable with that job, such as quickstride, or cure, or gravity. These abilities are then accessible to every job once you have reached that level; however, you may only equip 1 or 2 abilities from another class at one time. This forces people to decide if they want to have cure, or quickstride, or gravity, rather than them having the entire package. Abilities earned by spending the advanced points wouldn't have the same limit, it is just a limit imposed on cross-classed skills. EDIT: Yeah I know this is basically the same system that is in place right now for lvl 1-20, just slightly more restrictive.

2) Next I think at lvl 20 there should be another ability for classes; however, maybe this ability alters stats rather than is an action. An example is "magic dmg increased by 5%" for the base mage class, or something that would really benefit the advanced jobs in the class. Players then have the option of switching between the lvl 20 stat buff, but they will have to replace their current stat buff as a trade-off. This way, you can have some customization within certain classes, but it wont get to the point where classes aren't unique any more. I chose a stat bonus over a skill at lvl 20 because I feel level 20 still takes a while to level up to and if someone has to spend that much time to get a skill from a job they do not like, it just isn't fun.

3) My thoughts behind this are that it will make it more enjoyable going from lvl 1-20, since you will still have a character that still has very powerful cross-classed abilities. As the characters level up higher than 20 though, the effect of the bonus skills overall is decreased. I mean, gravity and quickstride are always useful, so maybe Cure can have an increased effect as you level up, but never to the extent that makes it comparable with a WHM cure spell at the same level.

4) Level 10 for these class abilities I find is fair. I think most serious crafters by this point have leveled other crafts just to get the abilities offered. Level 10 isn't hard work, but it still requires effort and also makes sense with the lore of the game, since you have to train in a class in order to know how to use an ability.

5) You could also expand this idea to have skills/bonuses available at lvl 30/40/50, and use the same "replace the current job bonus with a bonus from another class" idea, I just don't want to make it into a giant skill grab system again.

[avalonstormm]

I just want to point out that the class uniqueness and superb utilization of the current classes dont stand out only because there are no in game contents to push players to further "strategize" their skill set (abilities) when they play any of the existing classes...I mean for example...an archer is a very deadly dd class atm if you know how to combine/use abilities with other dd classes such as marauder and lancer but at this time..what's the point? I can only think of trying to apply this concept on solo grinding so that I can maximize my sp gain/hr but other than that I don't see any other reason.

Again Kurokikaze provided a really good post but it would only work if there is in game content that would push this idea to its true potential. I would say that SE needs to provide us (the players) more challenging in game content to enable us to push on trying to come up with different ideas on how to fully utilize the classes before diving on trying to get the class modifications...