[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Kurokikaze]

And thats not a problem. I'm just telling you that so that you feel at ease since you have a problem with the current classes being left behind. In a sense they are, but they are still there. It's all about how you look at it.

If we're going to make them specs we have to give more than one so people have a choice. Otherwise its not a spec but a flat out no choice upgrade.

That is accomplished now if you tell everyone that Gladiator is now a tank and only a tank. What about the people that want to play or have been playing as DD on their Gladiator?

That choice is crucial to the spec system imo.

[Kurokikaze]

That surplus/bonus argument is completely unfair and not the same thing. I guess if you look at it as the reverse of Rested Exp then it is sort of similar.. but seriously that was bad. lol

And yeah... Current classes would be hard to sell when people want to play FF classes. Again this is an FF game... Giving something the fanbase can relate to is important.

[northernsky]

These are specializations of the current jobs. Whoever has a 50 in a current job will be able to allot points into whatever classes branch of from them. This cannot be modified to require more grinding because then you run into that problem that I've been asking other people:

"What happens to level 50 players?"

The only way you feel that the two different roles should be treated differently is because we're:

1. Used to FFXI.
2. Introducing this 6 months into the games life and we're all beyond the threshold I'm proposing.

It'll be a logical change once people see how it pans out and get a feel for it. The point is that you don't want to anger your current end-game players because they took the time to grind out their characters. Telling them to go grind some more before they can start focusing on end game content when they're already maxed out is really bad.

^ this has been a big issue for a lot of us when we read the other proposals. They tell you grind an advanced job to perform and I think thats utter bullshit.

If this gets implemented:

- Log in
- Do quests for paths.
- Allot points to a path, spend extra points in the other or use some for cross-base abilities.
- Go do your raid not grind / Do quests for gear (if implemented; my guess is no)


I think what you have a problem with is that people won't know their jobs and to that I say.. They've been mix-matching skills to try to become those same jobs; I'm just making the choice more obvious and giving them bonuses for it.

You bring a good point concerning capped players. But they would not be as penalized as it may seem in my opinion.

First, they are already rank 50, so with comparable skills, they are stronger than a, say, a gladiator/paladin rank 30. There is still a considerable amount of grind remaining in between.

Second, there may be some ways to implement progression caps by intervals of ranks. Imagine that you have tresholds in your talent tree that cannot be be surpassed unless you hit rank 35, 40, 45 etc. So a rank 30 GLA could not have access to the PLD skills that a rank50 has.

Third, I don't think that telling capped players that they need to grind some more is bullshit. Merit points anyone? I think that if a new progression system is implemented, people will actually want to hang around with their capped class and rank it up in some ways, not only to do end game stuff. Of course that's only an opinion I can't speak for everyone.

As for your comment:
"The only way you feel that the two different roles should be treated differently is because we're:
1. Used to FFXI.
2. Introducing this 6 months into the games life and we're all beyond the threshold I'm proposing."

I would reply that these points definitely play a role, but most importantly, my concern is more toward character progression. I would like to feel that I am progressing into a paladin role, via ranking up/quests/side storyline etc. Just being thrown a whole set of abilities because I have ranked up another class would alter the sense of accomplishment for me.

edit: Even though I focus on my concern with the proposal, I pretty much agree with everything else and would love to see that implemented. I'm just proposing tweaks that would improve the system from my point of view but I realize that not everyone would like the exact same system.

[Betelgeuzah]

It's all about how you look at it.

But isn't this the problem? People will look at the DRK and PLD, and no matter what the lore says people will link these classes with the earlier games where they were separate. They could look at it from a different perspective, but why would they?

It doesn't help that people have so strong stigmas about these classes as is.. "I'm a good guy, thus I'm a paladin." and vice versa. Not to mention abilities like invincible and blood weapon.

[Kurokikaze]

As I keep saying, thats a story issue. How they sell this to players is whats going to either fall in line what they know of classic FF classes or what SE tells them (if they say otherwise. ex. DRK is another type of tank).

End of the day, if you tell someone that wants to play a DRK that now they can. They will do what you want regardless of whether or not it makes sense. I'm just saying that for the sake of immersion and storytelling that it should. lol

This thread and every other "class name" thread is proof of that. Go to like page 4-6 theres people talking about "alright now I can play X class" and I guarantee you some didn't understand what was being suggested here..

[Betelgeuzah]

As I keep saying, thats a story issue. How they sell this to players is whats going to either fall in line what they know of classic FF classes or what SE tells them.

But how do you assume that the lore SE feeds these people is going to overcome the stigma they have from these classes as-is? It's like SE has to change these people's views of the classes from before so that their mindset fits this game. That sounds like an impossible task, since the current mindset has been built over 20 or so years.

I don't really have a problem with DRK and PLD making it to the game.. or that GLA is suddenly inferior. But if SE tries to sell the classes as something they aren't according to everyone else's world views, they're not most likely going to succeed.

In the end it'll just feel weird to level both DRK and PLD at the same time, regardless of what the lore says. Especially when a strong "good vs. bad" stigma is attached to them, even if this game doesn't sport it that much.

[Kurokikaze]

Damn good storytelling. This is SE and that is their forte.

By the way, none of my examples went against what our mindset of FF classes is. So I'm not sure where thats coming from.

Third, I don't think that telling capped players that they need to grind some more is bullshit. Merit points anyone? I think that if a new progression system is implemented, people will actually want to hang around with their capped class and rank it up in some ways, not only to do end game stuff. Of course that's only an opinion I can't speak for everyone.

Totally not the same thing. People without merits could still perform in end game events, just not as well as those that were fully merited. Every other proposal for this has pretty much said you cannot do any end game until you grind more because you have to level your title/spec/etc.

Look at this from a developer's perspective. Things will be balanced under the assumption that people will be playing with a Title or a Specialization. A person with a 50 Pugilist, while they may have some nice abilities, is essentially useless because Monk or whatever is what encounters are being designed around.

Current players, regardless of being guinea pigs, should not have to do too much extra shit to go back to doing end game stuff. Readjustments here and there sure, another grind? No way.

[Betelgeuzah]

Damn good storytelling. This is SE and that is their forte.

Youre putting unrealistically much weight for storytelling when everything else reminds us of the earlier reincarnations of the classes. I think it's on a kinda shaky ground right now, buuut that may bee just mee.

By the way, none of my examples went against what our mindset of FF classes is. So I'm not sure where thats coming from.

What goes against our mindset is when you level both dark knight and paladin at once. You're a good guy and a bad guy.. at once! The 'damn good storytelling' says something else but the armor, the skills and the playstyle tells us a different story we're more likely to believe.

[Kurokikaze]

What goes against our mindset is when you level both dark knight and paladin at once. You're a good guy and a bad guy.. at once! The 'damn good storytelling' says something else but the armor, the skills and the playstyle tells us a different story we're more likely to believe.

I don't think theres anything I could do to change that point of view if my previous posts didn't accomplish it. Thats all on SE's execution of the concept at hand.

Again, they were examples. People tend to look at DRK and PLD as two sides of the same coin so I used it to explain GLA.

[Kurokikaze]

Would you prefer to be locked into 1 upgrade per base class?