[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Shazaam]

Seriously...

You bring a good idea, some have brought others, what's the problem in comparing them one aside the other?

From this post:

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

There is no problem in comparison, but what was said was that this 'Specialization' idea was mashing WoW on top of FFXIV, and that isn't the case. Hence why he asked the poster to leave.

Probably a bit abrupt and even rude, but given how much Kuro has responded to the exact same remark from previous posters and his involvement with the debate on this thread, it is hard to fault him for snapping a bit at a post that seemingly ignored 45+ pages of previous posts.

Comparison is fine, but trying to boil down any of these suggestions into : "that's just wow" is a little trite in itself, and not really a participation in discussion or feedback.

The OP itself shows that talent trees are just being used as a 'placeholder' for whatever GUI would be implemented.

Personally, I don't want to see a WoW talent tree pop up in my FFXIV... I would quit the game right there. But if they took the exact same progression, bonuses, and abilities, and popped into a GUI that looked like a Sphere Grid, I would be hooked.

That was a point made in the OP. That the GUI is up for debate, but seeing as the many players are familiar with the 'talent tree' in MMOs it makes a better placeholder for whatever original GUI SE chooses to use.

The second point being, that within this system you can STILL level all classes, and switch between them whenever you like. You are only restricted to whatever Advanced class you choose at the time, and this class can be switched in town or via quest at your choosing. It is clearly stated in the OP.

The OP system is nothing like WoW, you don't make alts, you continue your adventures on one character, growing with each experience and class change. If anything it is more like FFXI's system than the one we currently have in FFXIV.

TLDR: Kuro had pretty good reason for saying that this post ignored the OP and the past 45 pages, even if he was a bit rude about it. The poster either needs to read the OP and respond with insight, or suffer being potentially ignored by the rest of the debate.

[Seikninkuru]

There is no problem in comparison, but what was said was that this 'Specialization' idea was mashing WoW on top of FFXIV, and that isn't the case. Hence why he asked the poster to leave.

Probably a bit abrupt and even rude, but given how much Kuro has responded to the exact same remark from previous posters and his involvement with the debate on this thread, it is hard to fault him for snapping a bit at a post that seemingly ignored 45+ pages of previous posts.

Comparison is fine, but trying to boil down any of these suggestions into : "that's just wow" is a little trite in itself, and not really a participation in discussion or feedback.

The OP itself shows that talent trees are just being used as a 'placeholder' for whatever GUI would be implemented.

Personally, I don't want to see a WoW talent tree pop up in my FFXIV... I would quit the game right there. But if they took the exact same progression, bonuses, and abilities, and popped into a GUI that looked like a Sphere Grid, I would be hooked.

That was a point made in the OP. That the GUI is up for debate, but seeing as the many players are familiar with the 'talent tree' in MMOs it makes a better placeholder for whatever original GUI SE chooses to use.

The second point being, that within this system you can STILL level all classes, and switch between them whenever you like. You are only restricted to whatever Advanced class you choose at the time, and this class can be switched in town or via quest at your choosing. It is clearly stated in the OP.

The OP system is nothing like WoW, you don't make alts, you continue your adventures on one character, growing with each experience and class change. If anything it is more like FFXI's system than the one we currently have in FFXIV.

TLDR: Kuro had pretty good reason for saying that this post ignored the OP and the past 45 pages, even if he was a bit rude about it. The poster either needs to read the OP and respond with insight, or suffer being potentially ignored by the rest of the debate.

Still curious why we need class names to define playstyle, when you explain that in a form other than that FFXi or FF (insert number here) did so, we can talk. Thanks.


-Have fun!

[Shazaam]

Still curious why we need class names to define playstyle, when you explain that in a form other than that FFXi or FF (insert number here) did so, we can talk. Thanks.


-Have fun!

It's not just about class names. Those are just flavor to add the 'FF feel' and potentially draw back in players that quit the game over a frustration of it being a generic MMO as opposed to FF.

The true draw of the 'advanced classes' is to specialize roles. So you can specialize in being a tank, a controller, a healer, a magic nuker, a ranged DD, a melee DD, a buffer... etc.

That is why we need to define playstyle. The class names are just a way to do it, and one that I think just about every FFXIV player present or future would be behind. Not to mention the history and lore behind something as simple as the name 'Red Mage' or 'Dragoon'.

If I need to explain without using past FF games, then the FF MMO could just as well be called Eorzean Adventures. Love it or hate it, the FF name brings in players who want to experience the FF mythos online.

Most chose (and will choose) the game to play a Final Fantasy, not to play a random MMO offering.

[Seikninkuru]

It's not just about class names. Those are just flavor to add the 'FF feel' and potentially draw back in players that quit the game over a frustration of it being a generic MMO as opposed to FF.

The true draw of the 'advanced classes' is to specialize roles. So you can specialize in being a tank, a controller, a healer, a magic nuker, a ranged DD, a melee DD, a buffer... etc.

That is why we need to define playstyle. The class names are just a way to do it, and one that I think just about every FFXIV player present or future would be behind. Not to mention the history and lore behind something as simple as the name 'Red Mage' or 'Dragoon'.

If I need to explain without using past FF games, then the FF MMO could just as well be called Eorzean Adventures. Love it or hate it, the FF name brings in players who want to experience the FF mythos online.

Most chose (and will choose) the game to play a Final Fantasy, not to play a random MMO offering.

You are essentially saying people feel they do not have a role if they so choose to designate themselves to do something unconvential correct?


What I'm saying is you are playing with people who won't play with a person who specifies in debuffs, because its not as good as a 3rd guy who can spam cure?

If that is true, then isn't the problem the abilities and not the system?

Thanks!

-have Fun

[Shazaam]

You are essentially saying people feel they do not have a role if they so choose to designate themselves to do something unconvential correct?

Umm... How I mine for fish?

Thanks!

-have Fun

[Seikninkuru]

Umm... How I mine for fish?

Thanks!

-have Fun

Are you confused by what i say? My question is:

Are you saying people are confused because they can use abilities to define who they are rather than a class they pick at start select?


Futhermore, if you feel so, you would want them to pick that class after X levels rather than at start?

What do you want? Character indivudality or classes you level.

I'll be more simple.

Pick a class, level it, be the class you choose to level at 30 25, 10, or 1.

or

choose your class as you grow as a character.


Thanks!

- Have fun

[Shazaam]

Are you confused by what i say?

Very much so. These are the English forums right?

[northernsky]

From this post:



There is no problem in comparison, but what was said was that this 'Specialization' idea was mashing WoW on top of FFXIV, and that isn't the case. Hence why he asked the poster to leave.

Probably a bit abrupt and even rude, but given how much Kuro has responded to the exact same remark from previous posters and his involvement with the debate on this thread, it is hard to fault him for snapping a bit at a post that seemingly ignored 45+ pages of previous posts.

Comparison is fine, but trying to boil down any of these suggestions into : "that's just wow" is a little trite in itself, and not really a participation in discussion or feedback.

The OP itself shows that talent trees are just being used as a 'placeholder' for whatever GUI would be implemented.

Personally, I don't want to see a WoW talent tree pop up in my FFXIV... I would quit the game right there. But if they took the exact same progression, bonuses, and abilities, and popped into a GUI that looked like a Sphere Grid, I would be hooked.

That was a point made in the OP. That the GUI is up for debate, but seeing as the many players are familiar with the 'talent tree' in MMOs it makes a better placeholder for whatever original GUI SE chooses to use.

The second point being, that within this system you can STILL level all classes, and switch between them whenever you like. You are only restricted to whatever Advanced class you choose at the time, and this class can be switched in town or via quest at your choosing. It is clearly stated in the OP.

The OP system is nothing like WoW, you don't make alts, you continue your adventures on one character, growing with each experience and class change. If anything it is more like FFXI's system than the one we currently have in FFXIV.

TLDR: Kuro had pretty good reason for saying that this post ignored the OP and the past 45 pages, even if he was a bit rude about it. The poster either needs to read the OP and respond with insight, or suffer being potentially ignored by the rest of the debate.

I hear you. My point was more about "to the others posts, this does not belong in my thread", the others' posts being comparisons with other suggestions (and the notion of owning a thread is silly in istself...)

Anyway I know I started it but no point in further arguing about this. I like the OP's proposition a lot, like some others' propositions too. And I find that most of times they are not exclusive, i-e they can be meshed together. So comparing several ideas one with the other is a good thing, if it's done right of course.

[northernsky]

Ok so after rereading the initial posts, edits, and several pages, I have a suggestion/concern. With this system, a player could master all the abilities/skills/traits from a job without even playing it for a minute? For example, a current rank 50 gladiator would have access to all the DRK skills after completing their respective quest?

Forgive me if it has been brought up before, but I would suggest that you need to play a specific role/job (say DRK) to earn points in this particular job. I'm all for allocation of points through a path and reallocation of points within that path, but I think 2 different jobs should have completely independent paths. I think I would prefer earning DRK points separately from PLD points and not be able to interchange the said points.

As the OP said one of the main reason I have liked XI so much is that you can do everything with a single char. Personally, character progression is my biggest incentive to play the game, so I would like to feel like every ability that I use and that defines my playstyle have been earned and mastered.

This is an example of how I could see two propositions mesh together, i-e the title system that is on top of your class and the talent-tree mechanic that defines of how you progress in that said title/job.

[Kurokikaze]

Ok so after rereading the initial posts, edits, and several pages, I have a suggestion/concern. With this system, a player could master all the abilities/skills/traits from a job without even playing it for a minute? For example, a current rank 50 gladiator would have access to all the DRK skills after completing their respective quest?

Forgive me if it has been brought up before, but I would suggest that you need to play a specific role/job (say DRK) to earn points in this particular job. I'm all for allocation of points through a path and reallocation of points within that path, but I think 2 different jobs should have completely independent paths. I think I would prefer earning DRK points separately from PLD points and not be able to interchange the said points.

As the OP said one of the main reason I have liked XI so much is that you can do everything with a single char. Personally, character progression is my biggest incentive to play the game, so I would like to feel like every ability that I use and that defines my playstyle have been earned and mastered.

This is an example of how I could see two propositions mesh together, i-e the title system that is on top of your class and the talent-tree mechanic that defines of how you progress in that said title/job.

These are specializations of the current jobs. Whoever has a 50 in a current job will be able to allot points into whatever classes branch of from them. This cannot be modified to require more grinding because then you run into that problem that I've been asking other people:

"What happens to level 50 players?"

The only way you feel that the two different roles should be treated differently is because we're:

1. Used to FFXI.
2. Introducing this 6 months into the games life and we're all beyond the threshold I'm proposing.

It'll be a logical change once people see how it pans out and get a feel for it. The point is that you don't want to anger your current end-game players because they took the time to grind out their characters. Telling them to go grind some more before they can start focusing on end game content when they're already maxed out is really bad.

^ this has been a big issue for a lot of us when we read the other proposals. They tell you grind an advanced job to perform and I think thats utter bullshit.

If this gets implemented:

- Log in
- Do quests for paths.
- Allot points to a path, spend extra points in the other or use some for cross-base abilities.
- Go do your raid not grind / Do quests for gear (if implemented; my guess is no)


I think what you have a problem with is that people won't know their jobs and to that I say.. They've been mix-matching skills to try to become those same jobs; I'm just making the choice more obvious and giving them bonuses for it.