[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Cairdeas]

I really don't like this post. Many things are possible and work outside tradition and player base fixation and ideas of what a player should be. It's true that players think this way to cancel out your freedom, but things do work outside this phase and I'll give you some examples that are based upon but are effective and that probably 99% of players never thought of.

RDM/WAR as tank. This job combination requires a lot of player skill to perform effectively but I have personally done this in leveling parties. Equivalent damage taken to PLD/WAR previous to endgame gear and x2 MP pool for self curing along with bar(spell) makign it extremely effective against mob TP attacks that are elemental based and phalanx is extremely effective against very fast/weak hitting mobs. Postponed to endgame gear RDM tank is practical on magic damage dealing mobs.

RDM/NIN endgame tank is also viable. You can search this on Youtube for videos.

Tank class/BLU for super tanking. Combined with a THF or any class using SATA for boosted hate on the tank this is extremely effective for reducing damage taken beyond that of /WAR.

RDM/SCH for nuking. Combined with fast cast, convert, refresh, and B+ in nuking (/SCH allows this) makes RDM viable for DPS in this form. This setup is a viable replacement for both /blm and /whm. The only only advantage to either is elemental seal and erase at 75/37 (not including since Warp or Teleport since these aren't combat skills).

BLU/WAR for tank. In my opinion this the best possible setup for leveling as well as EG tanking especially with a genbu shield since you can stack cocoon and defender.

Now personally in FFXI I revolved around tanking/solo possibilities, but you think outside the box with a certain depth I'm sure this can be applied to other roles as well.

Not sure how well these would work out but some other ideas are:

1. BRD/COR or COR/BRD that doesn't pull. Maybe not the best for meripo but I'm sure this is effective everywhere else since it gives the job an extra buff.
2. BLU/THF for SATA enhanced damage. I have seen this before but BLU/NIN is very dominate compared to this which IMO dual wield can't compare to SATA and assuming you have a very good tank (which you should) then utsusemi is useless in parties.
3. Probably any DPS/THF for SATA + WS really.
4. DNC/NIN or NIN/DNC as tank is very effective assuming the player is skilled enough to build hate with these setups.

And I'm sure there are more setups I'm just not extremely familiar with DPS jobs.

I touched on this a few pages ago. My favorite job combo for myself was actually WHM/PLD with all defensive gear, a Hammer and shield, and 5 MNK/PLD's at my back trolling bones.

I miss those old bones parties :/

there is just something satisfying about watching 5 MNK/PLD's wail on a Bone while you are tanking it as a White Mage and it can't even attack because of your job traits and defensive skills.

[OmegaNovaios]

I touched on this a few pages ago. My favorite job combo for myself was actually WHM/PLD with all defensive gear, a Hammer and shield, and 5 MNK/PLD's at my back trolling bones.

I miss those old bones parties :/

there is just something satisfying about watching 5 MNK/PLD's wail on a Bone while you are tanking it as a White Mage and it can't even attack because of your job traits and defensive skills.

That is definitely out-of-the-box thinking, but this kind of thinking/finding new job combos was the most fun aspect of FFXI IMO and it didn't break the game by allowing things LIKE RDM/SCH having having tier 5 or 6 nukes with tier 5 or 6 cures or RDM/BLU with provoke and Sentinel which is equivalent to GLA with Cure III, Sacrifice III, and Stygian Spikes.

Personally RDM/BLU was my favorite setup especially at 80+ when I could do Dia III > Wild Oats > Chain Affinity > Vorpal Blade > Chainspell > Terror Touch > Water IV spam for around 7k damage or this w/o Chainspell and nuke spam for 1.5-2k damage (just barely possible to solo MB with tier 4 + fast cast). Doing this kind of damage while having 850+ defense (with taco) and -32ish damage per hit phalanx. Then FFXIV came out and I converted subs. XD

[Siatdiat]

There is a saying. never argue with a fool, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

I'm not wasting my time making posts that people basically ignore every point I make and respond that they just don't like it and want absolute freedom. The ironic thing is people who post both that they want even more freedom from the current system than the insane amount it has, and also they want classes to have more definition. The fact some people can't understand why these are mutually exclusive proves I am wasting my time here.

Who wants to play a game with basically no rules? In a year, even slow levelers are going to have leveled all the classes to 50. Basically a big grind just so they can have a super character, that would be like everyone else. There are a few little individual snowflakes that will make a poor combination of abilities and expect to be able to join groups, and not be accepted because the only choice devs will have then is to make content based on the average gamer who is using the most powerful combo in the game. If content is designed for 8 people, it will be 8 people with the best or close to best combinations of skills. 8 snowflakes will have no hope of completing it.

The mindset of gamers today is so different than when I was young. Playing the original FF and DW games in elementary school, myself and my friends goals were to beat the game as fast as possible, at the lowest possible levels. We would replay them and try to beat each other in this way. This made games challenging because rather than grind yourself to god status and destroy everything, you had to actually pay attention. I'm not sure what point it became about grinding for grinding sake for most players, where time spent meant you were skilled, but this is another side of what a totally free system will allow. The most hardcore grinders will grind out all classes asap, putting everyone else into catch up mode so they can become viable for endgame. Players who don't enjoy spending time grinding repetitive bullshit will quit, and the people who stay will pat themselves on the back for being hardcore. If anyone complains at this point, the mouthbreathers who stayed will mock them and say they don't have skill.

If you want ultimate freedom, find some 13 year olds to play D&D with. I have little doubt that the new team is smart enough to realize how shitty of an idea it is though and from now on I will just enjoy the tears of those who make no actual content in their posts, but just whine and throw out slogans.

[Kurokikaze]

Considerations for people already at R50 for 1 or more classes... You get to have access to a more defined role for whatever Advanced Class you decide to play. You will already have access to more cross class skills. (pending they re-arrange them to better suite other classes) ....more later

You are sorely mistaken if you think that is even an option for this:

I have not heard a single concrete answer on what happens to any of us that have leveled one of the current classes to 50. Are you trying to tell me that all that progress/grinding was for a few abilities and that I should go level one of the new classes to perform?

Yes, as a consolation lets give them some points for abilities that they can use on new classes. That'll help settle in the pain of wasting their time grinding out levels on these classes/weaponskills/whatever you feel like calling them.

By the way, I'm going to take Siat's route on this one and just avoid responding to the people that "play what they want". I got into a big debate about that like 20 pages back with another user and in the end we decided that we will never find common ground. My view of fun in a group is taking a role and doing it as best as I can. As a BG poster I'm all for experimenting and figuring things out, but we did that and we established that limitations must be made.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

You guys are stuck on FFXI and so was Tanaka. Kuroki Kaze, A+ thread and suggestion for class uniqueness.

[OmegaNovaios]

IMO FFXI had the most freedom an MMO can incorporate w/o breaking a game. FFXIV does need some system to restrict its current setup and Kuro's proposal is a very good fix. I think a middle ground between a skill tree, FFXI's sub job system (giving bonuses or EXCLUSIVES from ONE CLASS/JOB up to a certain level), and the current system (allowing NON EXCLUSIVES from ANY CLASS/JOB up to a certain level to be used) would be the best fix.

My point is the more customization the better so players can make something unique and that they can have pride in to make the game more interesting, but it can't allow players to have all the best skills on any class/job as this will break the game.

As for people against any reformation of the armory system you have to realize that I'm for as much customization as possible, but when you allow everyone to become overpowered it breaks the game and eliminates too much challenge from the game.

Also, one this SE should consider is allowing as much customization as possible w/o forcing whoever has the most time spent is the strongest, but instead more time spent gives you more options to fill other roles. Not fill every role at the same time on the same class.

IMO WOW has extremely limited customization, which is my #1 issue with the game. IMO FFXI had a good system setup with sub jobs for customization with the feeling of "as much time spent leveling other things I can be a different role by having more than 1 main job or I can enhance/change the role of my main job via a sub job." IMO FFXIV has a system that can be easily abused and promotes the feeling of "as much time spent leveling other things I can ultimately be everything/be overpowered on one/every class."

I think this goes beyond WOW/MMOs using skill trees, FFXI, and FFXIV allowing even more customization while at the same time restricting people from abusing the system. Now I know that restricting people from using actions past a certain level reduces customization options, but if you add a tree AND a sub job system then it makes up for the amount of customization lost.

However, I do hope that the skill tree does look more like a FF tree than a traditional MMO tree (which I think just looks really bland).

[javid]

this thread is a "burrito". The general ideas have been exhausted. Lets start on something different.

[Seikninkuru]

There is a saying. never argue with a fool, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

I'm not wasting my time making posts that people basically ignore every point I make and respond that they just don't like it and want absolute freedom. The ironic thing is people who post both that they want even more freedom from the current system than the insane amount it has, and also they want classes to have more definition. The fact some people can't understand why these are mutually exclusive proves I am wasting my time here.

Who wants to play a game with basically no rules? In a year, even slow levelers are going to have leveled all the classes to 50. Basically a big grind just so they can have a super character, that would be like everyone else. There are a few little individual snowflakes that will make a poor combination of abilities and expect to be able to join groups, and not be accepted because the only choice devs will have then is to make content based on the average gamer who is using the most powerful combo in the game. If content is designed for 8 people, it will be 8 people with the best or close to best combinations of skills. 8 snowflakes will have no hope of completing it.

The mindset of gamers today is so different than when I was young. Playing the original FF and DW games in elementary school, myself and my friends goals were to beat the game as fast as possible, at the lowest possible levels. We would replay them and try to beat each other in this way. This made games challenging because rather than grind yourself to god status and destroy everything, you had to actually pay attention. I'm not sure what point it became about grinding for grinding sake for most players, where time spent meant you were skilled, but this is another side of what a totally free system will allow. The most hardcore grinders will grind out all classes asap, putting everyone else into catch up mode so they can become viable for endgame. Players who don't enjoy spending time grinding repetitive bullshit will quit, and the people who stay will pat themselves on the back for being hardcore. If anyone complains at this point, the mouthbreathers who stayed will mock them and say they don't have skill.

If you want ultimate freedom, find some 13 year olds to play D&D with. I have little doubt that the new team is smart enough to realize how shitty of an idea it is though and from now on I will just enjoy the tears of those who make no actual content in their posts, but just whine and throw out slogans.

You are right, arguing with fools like yourself is a waste of time. Imposing your will on others is a great method of argument. It's really engrossing and helps people to grow.

D&D is so bad btw, that's why no one plays it... it gives the player freedom, how dare they not be forced into rigid roles with rigid restrictions because poor baby Siat failed art class and can't come up with a character on his own. Hopefully you'll quit before your illogical, irrational, and inane banter spreads to others.

[Seikninkuru]

Ironically you can't wrap your head around Paladin or Dark Knight not being classes but instead a gladiator focusing on a role. Dark Knights and Gladiators will be able to use all abilities of lower levels under this system, which allows for a large amount of customization still, they just won't be able to use rank 50 Lancer abilities. Limitless customization is a bad, bad thing.



I have already explained this, in my previous post and now here.



Currently you can level all classes/jobs to 50 and then use all abilities from one class on another. The restrictions for doing so are very minor. If you are too mentally slow or too purposefully blind to understand why this is bad, I can't help you. I do however know the developers are not likely to entertain keeping a broken system that has been complained about loudly in forums, and pointed out by a majority of players in a poll.



Actually it isn't anymore or less of this proposed here than what it is currently. The only difference is that right now there is very little limit to what you can sub, as you can literally sub any skill you have learned on any job with little restriction or weakness in ability. In fact, as I have mentioned, a player can play a melee class, and then use all of another melee classes abilities with little restriction. This gives the classes no real identity at all.




I have answered this already once again. Can I geta little background on what you intend to do with the current system when you have leveled all classes to 50? I have no groundwork on where to start to critique this because although I am prepared to do so, it is hard to just randomly pick one concept of why this is so important to you just for you to let me know I'm barking up the wrong tree. SO, little kitten. Let me know what tree you reside in.



I find it quite humorous that you have proven to me that the current system isn't completely free and open ended, by suggesting a far worse and even more ridiculous concept for character advancement. Seemingly, people all have ADD now and can't make even the slightest commitment to a choice anymore.



I probably seem hostile, guess I haven't dealt with enough terrible posters yet here to build up any tolerance.

I'll put it simply for you in big letters because apparently you're either a troll or a moron. Probably a mix of the both.


THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THE GAME MOST KNOW THIS. SCRAPPING SYSTEMS, ADDING RESTRICTIONS THAT FORCE YOU INTO X SETUP AND REMOVING THE ABILITY TO CREATE A CHARACTER BUT SIMPLY LEVELING A CLASS are not the answers. They are your narrow-minded stoneage answers.

Did you know there a re millions of people out there who thought final fantasy xi was a pile of shit? Crazy huh, you 500,000 can't figure that out can you?


Edit: Oh wise Siatit, I'd love to hear how it's any diff in a year or so when everyone has every CLASS leveled to 75 or 50 or 80 or 90 whatever the cap may be. Everyone can do everything. How terrible that will be.

[Judge_Xero]

You are sorely mistaken if you think that is even an option for this:

Don't get me wrong, I am all for your idea of how the new Class System should be. I was just throwing up some ideas for the problem you posted about people that have already Ranked to 50.... and now I see my error. I read the post before as if you were asking the question. But now I see the quote was only someone elses concern. NVM :-)