[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[javid]

I like titles and additional weapon specialist. Like a class that combines traditional brd and bst using instruments mastery. This class would be limited to using pets to attack by way of song but could also use songs to debuff mob. But! When pet is not summoned this class can focus on party buffs. So the class could only attack and debuff when pet was summon or the class can buff party when pet is away. This would keep the class from being over powered or left to its lonesome like bst were in ffxi.

[OmegaNovaios]

I've enjoyed learning the advantages and disadvantages of the current system. The issues we face are not just systemic, but intrinsic as well. The expectation of our previous FF experience, greatly plays on some our decisions to 're-create' a perceived ideal in which we pick and choose what we thought were the best parts of FF11 or maybe another MMO.

This set of expectations drives the paradox whether we live or die by the FF11 tag (or a another MMO), or somehow change what what we have come to expect as the defining rules which govern our online experience. The FF tag has lore contained within the franchise: names, histories, battles that are all familiar with the players of the franchise. We are empathetic to those constant reminders that FF14 has failed to provide.I mean if i mention Cid, enough said....

The current class system has people eager for a review in what can be changed and what needs to be changed, that much I know. However, an analysis in which we make these decisions are sometimes clouded by our need to to voice what needs to be changed, in opposition to analyzing why things need to change.

I am in agreement with Kuro and his OP, that a more sophisticated system is direly needed. I for one have always appreciated SE's ideals embedded in complexity of thought, uniqueness in implementation, and constant delivery of content worthy of any MMO's appetite. FF11 became a thought, once I heard the name FF14. I have had mixed feelings giving up my 'old friend' in exchange for my 'new one'. I voiced the game wasn't ready in alpha & beta testing and they weren't quite ready to launch this game.It happened, and now I can't go back to 11, the graphics are substandard and the fact I know anything I do in 11 is going to die sooner or later.

Which brings me to this point of contention:
The current system is a product of too much freedom in overall choice. While I advocate for the need to cross classes, the wild west of it creates no autonomy in class selection. In the event anyone wants to do a battle regimen depends on the reasons for doing so. I have seen the "Maintains the effectiveness of class abilities when used by different classes" attribute that can be attained in battle regimen but the people I have played with have never had any desire to use it, simply because cross class abilities make you 3-6 classes in one.

Even I am biased because how truly amazing FF11 was. I mean any game that can make a person play for 9+ years and make it feel like the very first time nearly every time is an amazing feat. Some of you may disagree, but I have been with SE since they were square soft, and they have truly accomplished something special.

The current classes have been mediocre at best. Simply the notion of advanced classes being more like classic FF jobs is promising, although the method in which this is going to be implemented is a subject of debate.

The classes described in this game fall short of me relating anything I am doing to the FF of the past. The key to this idea is to culminate the ideas of this OP to properly reflect our expectation that the FF name is alive and well.

We rebel against anything that disrupts our frame of mind that we aren't convinced this is a FF title.
I agree that an implementation the OP described: use a point system to determine certain outcomes in class specificity. Use the lore of old jobs to invigorate the jobs of the present. Give relevance to the FF we know.

Remember we are not the noobs of 2002, the level of sophistication needs to be raised. Never in my life would I have thought chaining Colibri for merits in Aht Urghan could result in a Chain 320 and the only reason we stopped was because everyone had maxed their merits and maxed their buffer.

It is these limits we broke and forever defined our revolt against the class system that is mediocre in comparison to the jobs we came to appreciate as the height of an advanced class/job.
This OP is the step in the right direction. Thanks^^

I agree that FFXI was truly amazing even over such a long period of time because it always had something challenging to work towards, a goal worthy of spending our time on, not just senseless grinding just so we can do tedious battles that do not pose a threat because it is too easy before and after acquiring mmo experience, gear, and/or levels. It gave people a sense of pride and accomplishment not only in attaining goals in battle, but having a truly unique class and being good at it while still giving players a great layout of customization via sub jobs.

I think the main 2 goals that SE should push towards is creating a challenging environment while forcing players to take a more tactical approach to the armory system. I believe that this OP is a great idea for doing this, but I think there is a much easier approach that fits with the current armory system and allows all of its customization options.

I believe the most interesting form of creating a class would be have something like Gladiator 10, Thaumaturge 10, and Conjurer 10 unlocks the use of the class Red Mage or Blue Mage, something like this. Now the way I would have the game in these sense is to give an option in the main menu when equipping a sword w/ or w/o a shield that allows you to become a Red Mage or Blue Mage from a Gladiator which would be the default class for equipping a sword. Which could have Red Mage or Blue Mage be leveled form Lv. 1 or start out at Lv. 10 (or could be higher and require higher prerequisites) and gain actions in the same fashion along with having base stats changed to reflect these classes traditionally which would be a jack-of-all-trades stat base rather than pure magic or pure defense base stats.

Another interesting path in this sense would to change the base stats in the same way but not allow acquiring new skills but instead progress in levels of 1 class of your choice of the prerequisite/default weapon (which should be allowed to use any GLA/THM/CON weapon in this case and have the option to change to Red Mage/Blue Mage) or to progress in all 3 classes evenly at 1/3 the SP rate but for all 3 classes.

I believe this setup would be fast and effective (giving the players more fun immediately). I'm not sure which would be better/more fun in the long run (both setups would have to be tested) but this certainly could come first and then converted in this threads OP if still not good enough for the community, but either way I see this as a good temporary fix at least or permanent if it works out.

[snowstriker]

Kuro, just wanted to say I appreciate the time you took for posting this and I agree with it, not sure who could disagree.

[QuickShadow]

To the OP, good work for your idea and posting it in an understandable and structured post.

At first, I really liked your idea and after going through the 36 pages of replies, I have to say I prefer the FFT unlock way. I mean with your way of doing it, a gladiator could only become a PLD/DRK. With the FFT unlock way, let's say you unlock two new classes and they start at R1, when you get these classes to R20 you could unlock new classes from new classes. Not sure if I'm wording that clearly!

Also I don't think they should remove the ability to equip other disciplines skills. There are already a few abilities on each discipline that are unique to these discipline. What they should do is improve the penalty for equipping DoM abilities on a DoW (i.e: Sacrifice II on Pugilist). The armoury system is great imo, because it allows the player to really customize their character. Personnaly, I don't care about theory crafting and being "maxed out" like I used to when playing WoW. I play to have fun. If they restrain me from trying a lot of different combinations, I won't have as much fun as I could have trying all kind of different setups.

I know some of you really want to be the best DD/tank/healer/support/etc... and will look at spreadsheets and TC but until they really introduce challenging content in FFXIV, this is kinda pointless. Also with the FFT unlock way, they could have so many different disciplines that you would see a lot of different tanks/DD/healer/support/etc... As for the weapon = class, they would need to find a way to deal with that as a RDM/BLU I want to be able to use sword.

Again, great job with your post. A lot of people were able to give their opinion and I hope SE takes a look at this post and also that it's what they had in mind for future updates.

[Kimahri]

I love posts such as these that really focus on the main issues troubling FFXIV. I'm just so sad that these issues aren't the most directly related topics to talk about. This forum has become a comedy strip of laugh out loud topics such as surname removal, jump, aggro icon, etc, that it really has stopped becoming funny. It's rather stupid how people think removing the surname can in anyway attract people into a game that is currently bland and tasteless.

Keep up the good work, and sorry to rant. Just this stuff has gotten out of hand way too much.

[Ouka_Ranbu]

Great presentation but I don't like talent tree.
Current classes need fixing but it doesn't mean that SE has to use talent tree.
They could always add skill/weapon affinity to fix some problem.
I.E Victimize II for PUG can be used by any class and it does most damage if you have seasoned veteran and use it as an archer (yes it's ridiculous how much damage it does as archer --

But SE can easily fix this by adding HTH damage bonus and increase/decrease affinity bonus/penalty.

Instead of having advanced class it might be better to just mix/match skill to fit into class role, while adding something like Title bonus

I.E by doing class quest you can earn titles such as "PLD" or "DRK" and putting on "PLD" title would give you HP/Mana/DEF bonus and ATK penalty as well as weapon and weapon skill Bonus/penalty (somewhat like FFXI did)

[Kurai]

Someone give Kurokikaze a cookie. great post, I like your idea, I wanna be PLD to

[darkstarpoet1]

i can agree with this. i love being able to mix and match my abilities from the base classes, but am not against having "advanced classes" with abilities the base classes can't use. would the advanced classes be able to use the abilities from the base classes? if so i am all for that, but i like the being able to use the base abilities when going out to solo/grind. then you would have your special class that is specialized, but not in a restricting kind of way which is the thing i hate is feeling restricted.

[Kurokikaze]

- Base classes have their own set of abilities/traits/skills/spells which are generic. These can be used cross class and spec.
- Specs have their own set of abilities/traits/skills/spells which can only be used by that spec.
- You are free to change specs whenever. Points need to be redistributed unless SE adds templates.
- You are free to change classes whenever by switching to different weapon. (I would never change this. This is what defines an FF MMO.)

Point of keeping some abilities/traits as spec only is to promote uniqueness and move away from this insanely broken system where everyone is everything.

Purpose of specs themselves is to introduce FF classes, which they intend to do, while giving the current classes a purpose - evolving into the FF classes. If they just add new classes - that won't fix anything, just add to more shit that needs to get balanced. Talent Trees themselves don't have to be used (even though it is), but its nice to have a GUI to play with when allotting points and mouse over description of what skills/abilities/spells/traits do before you spend points on them.

Just thought I'd clarify that for the lot of you. Anyways back to BG and work I go.

[darkstarpoet1]

with the clarification i am in true agreement. no reason a base class should be able to use an skill from an advanced class to me. granted i personally wouldn't mind, but that would be a concession everyone should be able to agree on and move forward with another issue to tackle.