[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Roll]

http://i52.tinypic.com/vymlpe.jpg

I loved this idea.

[Calypso]

Love the fundamental design idea Kuro. I think it is a large step in the right direction, and I hope the devs will look at your insight and draw from it no matter the outcome. I would like to toss out an idea for your critique. Maybe this gets too complicated but wanted your opinion.

It took a while to go through the whole thread, so if I missed where you addressed this scenario I apologize. Also, maybe this idea just dove-tails yours except changes one of your initial base assumptions (that you made out of necessity); that we would not be required to re-rank each advanced class separately, but that a 50 Gladiator would have full access to both the Paladin and Dark Knight talent trees.

Would there be a possibility of maintaining the original classes in a form that expands the basic functionality of the classes. The initial classes we have now can be adjusted to provide general skills that support the base functions of that type. For example, gladiator is a general tanking class. Archer would be general ranged attack skill support.

A player could choose to follow a specialized, talent tree class at 20, or they could stick to the general class. If they did the advanced class, they would be given the skills of that specialization and everything necessary for the class, but may not have some of the general skills that a generalist would obtain. Traits such as 5% shield bonus, extended guard or parry stance, etc would be available to the general class. Some of the traits or skills could even be shared. (Shield Bash available to Paladin at 35 while 25 for Gladiator) The real balancing would be in the distribution and usage of ability points.

Why leave the original class? It could be used to provide a limited, carefully balanced group of cross-over skills. They would be expensive to slot and of limited ability, but would give the flexibility some of the broader thinking players may want.

The general idea would be a three tier system of costs.

AP = Ability Point
General Classes = Classes we have now. (Gladiator, Pugilist, etc)
Specialized Classes = New advanced classes. (Paladin, Dark Knight, etc)

The 1st tier would be the immediate class one is using, based on the weapon one is wielding. The player could slot any skill within the immediate tree from 21 to 50 in the class tree and 1 to 21 in the general class tree for the normal AP cost.

The 2nd Tier would be the general class of the tree structure. For Dark Night, the general tree would be the Gladiator class tree, starting from rank 21 and up. These skills could be slotted to specialized classes within the immediate tree for twice the AP cost of the skill.

The 3rd Tier would be the general classes of other class trees OR for a specialized class skill or trait within the same tree structure. For example, a Dark Knight slotting a Pugilist skill/trait OR a Dark Knight slotting a Paladin skill/trait. These skills could be slotted for four times the AP cost.

Skills and Traits for advanced tree branches not within the same tree are not available to be slotted.

I realize this is the same system as you have described with some tweaks. Just wondering if you think an idea like this is feasible, and throwing it out there. If someone wanted to spend crazy AP to slot raise from their 50 Conj to their Paladin, they could, but SE could still subject it to significant cross-class penalties.

Is the grind of a general class on top of a specialized class to much to ask? I know the min-maxers will do it, but would it be too big a turnoff to casuals?

/textwall m(_ _)m

[OmegaNovaios]

The best proposal/idea i have seen by far on any website. Great job putting this together! I hope at least most of this idea is implemented into FFXIV as this would fix a lot of issues regarding character progression while providing even more options for character customization. The only thing I would add to this is also implementing 1 or 2 subclass options so that classes aren't forced into a particular role and may be able to cover more than 1 role on the same class setup by changing a subclass.

[Airlea]

Great posts and agree 100% Kaze. ^5

Edit: And yeah, DoL/H could potentially be used to unlock advanced classes as well. LNC50/ARM40 -> Chocobo Knight? Why not?

[Favz]

I have not played any FF game. I have played a few MMO:s before and the things that attracted my to FFIV is that it can be played with a gamepad and the atmosphere in the trailers. I only played short time but I have enjoy three things:
*) That you can swich class so fast (only to swiching weapon). This is a tremendous advantage if you like me enjoy that type of variation. That one thing that is done better in this game then in any other game.
**) Crafting are done in better way then the most other MMO I have played.
***) The game is fully adapted to gamepad so I can play in a relaxed way

I can see the good thing about specialization as long as one character can swich between any classes.

- A template feature that would allow players to swap to previously saved specs/talents/abilities/gear configurations by using 1 button would be a great addition (not just to this - but the game in general).

Would be great.

Concerning how to implement specialization. Talent tree is not the only way to go.
There exist alternative ways of making restrictions.

Restriction you can make:
# Great armor penalty.
# weakening some types of abilities.
# Remove access to some type of abilities.

In that way a advanced class would be constituted by 3 things:
- In what parts you get weaker.
- In what parts you get stronger.
- special abilities

For people that like to use the current pick every thing you like Red Mage should be the advanced class. All other classes should have limitations.
Some should be more limed then others.
Ex:
As a Blue Mage you loses the option to use any healing abilities. And gain % on damage.
As a Scholar you loses the option of using any melee or bow/throwing damage abilities. And gain % on magic damage and healing.
As a Black Mage you you loses the option of using any healing abilities and any melee or bow/throwing damage abilities. And gain % on magic damage.
And the bonus should be higher the more you "give upp". So a Black Mage should gain more % on magic damage then a Scholar.

The result would be a bit difference then using the talent tree concept.

The concept I prefer is the one that is use in D&D School Specialization. Basically you choice what to give up and you choice what to gain bonus in.

There two basic advantage over the "School Specialization" concept. It's more flexible and you don't lose the people that likes to play more the jack-of-all-trades.

The more narrow advance classes like White Mage or Black Mage easy fits into the "talent tree concept". But classes that can use both melee and all Magic ("Red Mage") or melee and all magic except healing (Blue Mage) don't fit in.

[CatchaFire420]

I've enjoyed learning the advantages and disadvantages of the current system. The issues we face are not just systemic, but intrinsic as well. The expectation of our previous FF experience, greatly plays on some our decisions to 're-create' a perceived ideal in which we pick and choose what we thought were the best parts of FF11 or maybe another MMO.

This set of expectations drives the paradox whether we live or die by the FF11 tag (or a another MMO), or somehow change what what we have come to expect as the defining rules which govern our online experience. The FF tag has lore contained within the franchise: names, histories, battles that are all familiar with the players of the franchise. We are empathetic to those constant reminders that FF14 has failed to provide.I mean if i mention Cid, enough said....

The current class system has people eager for a review in what can be changed and what needs to be changed, that much I know. However, an analysis in which we make these decisions are sometimes clouded by our need to to voice what needs to be changed, in opposition to analyzing why things need to change.

I am in agreement with Kuro and his OP, that a more sophisticated system is direly needed. I for one have always appreciated SE's ideals embedded in complexity of thought, uniqueness in implementation, and constant delivery of content worthy of any MMO's appetite. FF11 became a thought, once I heard the name FF14. I have had mixed feelings giving up my 'old friend' in exchange for my 'new one'. I voiced the game wasn't ready in alpha & beta testing and they weren't quite ready to launch this game.It happened, and now I can't go back to 11, the graphics are substandard and the fact I know anything I do in 11 is going to die sooner or later.

Which brings me to this point of contention:
The current system is a product of too much freedom in overall choice. While I advocate for the need to cross classes, the wild west of it creates no autonomy in class selection. In the event anyone wants to do a battle regimen depends on the reasons for doing so. I have seen the "Maintains the effectiveness of class abilities when used by different classes" attribute that can be attained in battle regimen but the people I have played with have never had any desire to use it, simply because cross class abilities make you 3-6 classes in one.

Even I am biased because how truly amazing FF11 was. I mean any game that can make a person play for 9+ years and make it feel like the very first time nearly every time is an amazing feat. Some of you may disagree, but I have been with SE since they were square soft, and they have truly accomplished something special.

The current classes have been mediocre at best. Simply the notion of advanced classes being more like classic FF jobs is promising, although the method in which this is going to be implemented is a subject of debate.

The classes described in this game fall short of me relating anything I am doing to the FF of the past. The key to this idea is to culminate the ideas of this OP to properly reflect our expectation that the FF name is alive and well.

We rebel against anything that disrupts our frame of mind that we aren't convinced this is a FF title.
I agree that an implementation the OP described: use a point system to determine certain outcomes in class specificity. Use the lore of old jobs to invigorate the jobs of the present. Give relevance to the FF we know.

Remember we are not the noobs of 2002, the level of sophistication needs to be raised. Never in my life would I have thought chaining Colibri for merits in Aht Urghan could result in a Chain 320 and the only reason we stopped was because everyone had maxed their merits and maxed their buffer.

It is these limits we broke and forever defined our revolt against the class system that is mediocre in comparison to the jobs we came to appreciate as the height of an advanced class/job.
This OP is the step in the right direction. Thanks^^

[Vaymathias]

I've enjoyed learning the advantages and disadvantages of the current system. The issues we face are not just systemic, but intrinsic as well. The expectation of our previous FF experience, greatly plays on some our decisions to 're-create' a perceived ideal in which we pick and choose what we thought were the best parts of FF11 or maybe another MMO.

This set of expectations drives the paradox whether we live or die by the FF11 tag (or a another MMO), or somehow change what what we have come to expect as the defining rules which govern our online experience. The FF tag has lore contained within the franchise: names, histories, battles that are all familiar with the players of the franchise. We are empathetic to those constant reminders that FF14 has failed to provide.I mean if i mention Cid, enough said....

The current class system has people eager for a review in what can be changed and what needs to be changed, that much I know. However, an analysis in which we make these decisions are sometimes clouded by our need to to voice what needs to be changed, in opposition to analyzing why things need to change.

I am in agreement with Kuro and his OP, that a more sophisticated system is direly needed. I for one have always appreciated SE's ideals embedded in complexity of thought, uniqueness in implementation, and constant delivery of content worthy of any MMO's appetite. FF11 became a thought, once I heard the name FF14. I have had mixed feelings giving up my 'old friend' in exchange for my 'new one'. I voiced the game wasn't ready in alpha & beta testing and they weren't quite ready to launch this game.It happened, and now I can't go back to 11, the graphics are substandard and the fact I know anything I do in 11 is going to die sooner or later.

Which brings me to this point of contention:
The current system is a product of too much freedom in overall choice. While I advocate for the need to cross classes, the wild west of it creates no autonomy in class selection. In the event anyone wants to do a battle regimen depends on the reasons for doing so. I have seen the "Maintains the effectiveness of class abilities when used by different classes" attribute that can be attained in battle regimen but the people I have played with have never had any desire to use it, simply because cross class abilities make you 3-6 classes in one.

Even I am biased because how truly amazing FF11 was. I mean any game that can make a person play for 9+ years and make it feel like the very first time nearly every time is an amazing feat. Some of you may disagree, but I have been with SE since they were square soft, and they have truly accomplished something special.

The current classes have been mediocre at best. Simply the notion of advanced classes being more like classic FF jobs is promising, although the method in which this is going to be implemented is a subject of debate.

The classes described in this game fall short of me relating anything I am doing to the FF of the past. The key to this idea is to culminate the ideas of this OP to properly reflect our expectation that the FF name is alive and well.

We rebel against anything that disrupts our frame of mind that we aren't convinced this is a FF title.
I agree that an implementation the OP described: use a point system to determine certain outcomes in class specificity. Use the lore of old jobs to invigorate the jobs of the present. Give relevance to the FF we know.

Remember we are not the noobs of 2002, the level of sophistication needs to be raised. Never in my life would I have thought chaining Colibri for merits in Aht Urghan could result in a Chain 320 and the only reason we stopped was because everyone had maxed their merits and maxed their buffer.

It is these limits we broke and forever defined our revolt against the class system that is mediocre in comparison to the jobs we came to appreciate as the height of an advanced class/job.
This OP is the step in the right direction. Thanks^^

Okay......^this^.....about 90% of it explains how I feel.

One thing that I really want to bring up, is, I feel the major thing that FF had over all the other games, was the ability to access every class/job from a single character, at maximum output(excluding merit), assuming you have the gear to do so. Just because I decided to level DRG, it doesn't keep me from being able to level any of the others to maximum effect given the time.

That is probably the most loved feature from FFXI that I can think of, well, second to spanking a racist Bahamut.

[CptnGamble]

The Armoury system was created for fanboi's (imo). We fanbois know what skills a WHM has, A BLM has, a RDM has, a MNK has, a PLD has, ect, and what roles they play. What squeeeeeenix did was give us the tools, albeit not all the tools...yet, to make these archetype "jobs" by ourselves.

So SE should reiterate the fact that we don't have set "jobs" and post some builds to fit certain roles for those who need their hands held.

[AlexiaKidd]

I've enjoyed learning the advantages and disadvantages of the current system. The issues we face are not just systemic, but intrinsic as well. The expectation of our previous FF experience, greatly plays on some our decisions to 're-create' a perceived ideal in which we pick and choose what we thought were the best parts of FF11 or maybe another MMO.

This set of expectations drives the paradox whether we live or die by the FF11 tag (or a another MMO), or somehow change what what we have come to expect as the defining rules which govern our online experience. The FF tag has lore contained within the franchise: names, histories, battles that are all familiar with the players of the franchise. We are empathetic to those constant reminders that FF14 has failed to provide.I mean if i mention Cid, enough said....

The current class system has people eager for a review in what can be changed and what needs to be changed, that much I know. However, an analysis in which we make these decisions are sometimes clouded by our need to to voice what needs to be changed, in opposition to analyzing why things need to change.

I am in agreement with Kuro and his OP, that a more sophisticated system is direly needed. I for one have always appreciated SE's ideals embedded in complexity of thought, uniqueness in implementation, and constant delivery of content worthy of any MMO's appetite. FF11 became a thought, once I heard the name FF14. I have had mixed feelings giving up my 'old friend' in exchange for my 'new one'. I voiced the game wasn't ready in alpha & beta testing and they weren't quite ready to launch this game.It happened, and now I can't go back to 11, the graphics are substandard and the fact I know anything I do in 11 is going to die sooner or later.

Which brings me to this point of contention:
The current system is a product of too much freedom in overall choice. While I advocate for the need to cross classes, the wild west of it creates no autonomy in class selection. In the event anyone wants to do a battle regimen depends on the reasons for doing so. I have seen the "Maintains the effectiveness of class abilities when used by different classes" attribute that can be attained in battle regimen but the people I have played with have never had any desire to use it, simply because cross class abilities make you 3-6 classes in one.

Even I am biased because how truly amazing FF11 was. I mean any game that can make a person play for 9+ years and make it feel like the very first time nearly every time is an amazing feat. Some of you may disagree, but I have been with SE since they were square soft, and they have truly accomplished something special.

The current classes have been mediocre at best. Simply the notion of advanced classes being more like classic FF jobs is promising, although the method in which this is going to be implemented is a subject of debate.

The classes described in this game fall short of me relating anything I am doing to the FF of the past. The key to this idea is to culminate the ideas of this OP to properly reflect our expectation that the FF name is alive and well.

We rebel against anything that disrupts our frame of mind that we aren't convinced this is a FF title.
I agree that an implementation the OP described: use a point system to determine certain outcomes in class specificity. Use the lore of old jobs to invigorate the jobs of the present. Give relevance to the FF we know.

Remember we are not the noobs of 2002, the level of sophistication needs to be raised. Never in my life would I have thought chaining Colibri for merits in Aht Urghan could result in a Chain 320 and the only reason we stopped was because everyone had maxed their merits and maxed their buffer.

It is these limits we broke and forever defined our revolt against the class system that is mediocre in comparison to the jobs we came to appreciate as the height of an advanced class/job.
This OP is the step in the right direction. Thanks^^

OMG THIS x1000

Thank you for summing up how I feel about this game better than I ever could ^^

Also this may interest you Catchfire420 CLICKY

[Zacky]

I love the idea, great post!