[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Carpe]

You're saying that License Board, Sphere Grid, and WOW spec trees are the same, but they're actually not. These systems are only the same in the sense that they're all tools for customizing your characters. But aside from the fact that their all tools for customization they're actually very different. The difference is when and where the customization occurs and how much can be customized.

In the sphere grid your character starts off with a very specific role and only after developing your character and getting through the imposed barriers can you break off into other skill trees.

The license board gives you total freedom right away there aren't any constraints imposed like the barriers in the sphere grid and when your character is totally developed they can literally be any mix of skills and abilities without having any penalties. This destroys class uniqueness unless you want to self-impose constraints on your character to have them specialize in certain skills and create a "class" for them.

With WOW everyone starts off the same in a certain pre-defined classes and then specializes in certain skills provided by 3 different trees, you're encouraged to specialize because the deeper you go into the tree the more advanced abilities are available to you, you're limited by a total number of points that you can apply so that you can't be everything at once like you can in FFXII.

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When I said that the spec tree is so similar to what other MMOs are doing I wasn't trying to make a valid argument just saying my personal taste and preference. A lot of what we are discussing is just about opinon and preference not some logical argument about what is intrinsically better than the other. There's nothing intrinsically wrong about WOW spec trees, I just want to see something new.

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The main difference about the title system I was talking about and the class specialization system you are talking about is that while in the end you get FF classes and specialization, we're doing it in different ways.

You're system says that a Gladiator becomes a Dark Knight or a Paladin. So in your system, a DRK and PLD is a class the way a GLA is class. So after a certain level of GLA you choose DRK or PLD, do a quest and get a DRK or PLD weapon and become a specialized Gladiator. Can I do both specialization quests? Can I switch between DRK and PLD? Does GLA stop leveling up?

You system limits your "Advanced Jobs" to using only certain weapons and only coming from certain classes. Basically you're saying a Dark Knight is an advanced sword expert. But the advanced jobs from FFXI and other FF games weren't really defined by the weapons they used. So I don't think this idea is really consistent with the armory theme and the old job theme. Just my opinon.

With the title system you have two tiers of "classes" instead of just everything being a class in the same way. A GLA, CON, THM, etc can be a Red Mage, it doesnt require you to pick only one of those trees to make a Red Mage. This makes more sense to me because we know that Red Mages don't only have to use a certain particular weapon. A Red Mage is more a collection of skills, traits, and abilities and play style that don't limit it to being just a rapier and sword user.

So with a title system you have a weapon class and a title. You can mix your title with different weapon classes. The title gives you access to title-only traits and skills and the weapon class you choose helps to determine what type of title you are playing, what type of red mage are you going to be? A sword-using redmage(GLA), or a mage-type(CON/THM), or even some new style like lancer redmage or hand-to-hand redmage.

Here's some "classic" possible combinations:
Ranger = Ranger + Archer(Bow Ranger) or Ranger + Musketeer(Gun Ranger)
Dragoon = Dragoon + Lancer (Lance Dragoon) or Dragoon + Gladiator (Sword Dragoon)
Pirate = Pirate + Marauder (Axe Pirate) or Pirate + Musketeer (Gun Pirate)
Black Mage = BLM + CON (Burst Magic BLM) or BLM + THM (DOT Magic BLM)

You aren't completely constrained by the weapon you use (you can mix in skills from other weapons) You are just making yourself more effecient in using a particular role/play style which leaves you with a lot of options but creates the specialization and role recognition that people are looking for. This is like a new twist on the old class/sub class system.
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As far as unlocking FFT style. Title system doesn't have to work like that, you can have all titles unlocked through advance job style quests after a certain level. I think your system is actually more restrictive or grind inducing than an FFT style cause you are saying that if you want a DRK you are going to have to level up a Gladiator, but if you want a THF you are going to have to level up a pugilist separately.

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In the end SE will have their own ideas about how to implement new classes and probably won't "take" any of ideas other than maybe to get a sense of what kind of direction people want the game to go in. That's why I just wanted to throw some other ideas out there for people to see. These two threads are similar to what I would like to see implemented if you want to read more:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Class-Renaming
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...9889#post19889

[Shazaam]

You're saying that License Board, Sphere Grid, and WOW spec trees are the same, but they're actually not. These systems are only the same in the sense that they're all tools for customizing your characters. But aside from the fact that their all tools for customization they're actually very different. The difference is when and where the customization occurs and how much can be customized.

So all the systems are exactly the same, with slight tweaks. It's a customization system, that promotes character advancement and growth... with a different font on each. Where the customization occurs and how much can be customized is up to the player in every single system.

They are all the same. Different graphics, different numbers, but inherently all the same.

You're system says that a Gladiator becomes a Dark Knight or a Paladin. So in your system, a DRK and PLD is a class the way a GLA is class. So after a certain level of GLA you choose DRK or PLD, do a quest and get a DRK or PLD weapon and become a specialized Gladiator. Can I do both specialization quests? Can I switch between DRK and PLD? Does GLA stop leveling up?

Yep, you still keep lvling GLD up while you are a PLD, but if you switch to DRK you have no DRK abilities aside from what you have leveled. The base class levels while the advanced class levels, but both advanced classes don't level at the same time. You take your PLD and GLD-base to 50 and want to swap? Then you have a DRK 1 and GLD 50 to use skills from and the stats earned on the base class.

You system limits your "Advanced Jobs" to using only certain weapons and only coming from certain classes. Basically you're saying a Dark Knight is an advanced sword expert. But the advanced jobs from FFXI and other FF games weren't really defined by the weapons they used. So I don't think this idea is really consistent with the armory theme and the old job theme. Just my opinon.

Advance jobs in most FF games really WERE defined by the weapons they used. FFXI was different in unlocking 'advance jobs' but they weren't really 'advance jobs', they were new jobs that just required you had a lvl 30. Making a Magus or a Warlock in FF1 (yes FF1... I went 'old school') was an 'advanced job' that was a skill tree that branched off your base class.


Everything in this theory recalls FF1. Advance class and 'skill trees' (or whatever you want to call them) originated in the first Final Fantasy. This system is just a copypasta of something that has worked for the last 20+ years.

And I approve.

[Zirael_Foxfire]

[dev1033] When I saw how Rift (one of new WoW clones) handled class system, I thought to myself 'damn, why FF14 wasn't made this way': a job/subjob/subsubjob based on skill trees (for reference, here's a skill tree builder from that on Allakhazam forums for how would my hypothetical Thief/DD/tank look like http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...cuoz0z.EVb00oR). I liked FF11's job/subjob system but I like to have a choice of what abilities to use (like in current FF14 and other MMORPG tree systems). Having an option to use abilities from all leveled classes is nice and great for freedom of your playstyle, but in the same time, you'd maybe have to have level jobs just to use a single skill from them, plus abilities would have to get all evened out and nerfed to keep game balance (like Punishing Barbs got nuked because they were too good and anyone could use them).
I know it might be too much to ask since it was already done in another game, but something like Rift's class system is what I'd like to see in FF14. advanced job/subjob with a merit point-like abilities you can choose from on few different tree tiers.
Advanced jobs idea looks to me like FF11's lv30 jobs approach a bit, but I wouldn't mind, since that worked reasonably well. But I'd still like to be able to choose what abilities from each job to buff up. Looking forward to the changes, whatever they will be like.