[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Elcura]

Along with this system, I would like it if basic jobs could still advance, and those advancements would be used in cross-class skills.

I say this, because while the current cross-class system is... underwheming, it's a good idea and opens up a lot of different potentials in terms of builds and playstyles. My fear is that once specialization happens, the basics go away.

Basics in this case being the basic jobs. I personally always feel it's a waste to throw away stuff, but I'm not against re-doing it if absolutely necessary. With that said, should basic jobs advance along with specializations and advanced jobs, you could get a deep system that allows for plenty of customization.

Being able to switch specializations without great penalty (or none) I think is needed. As FF Online's hook (in a sense) is being able to experience everything without starting over.

In the end, specialization skills can only be used on that spec, while basic skills (such as ones you get from PUG, CON, etc) can be used on all jobs regardless of spec. Currently the motive to level jobs high is to be more versatile, and I like that the progress I've made on one job could help the job I want to play.

Another thing that worries me generally about this is SE's ability to design useful skills. Of course, every job has filler skills and useless trash, but in XIV I see a lot more useless skills and WS than useful ones. This is likely a side-effect of cross-class, but the skills seen are quite lacking in imagination and even more in utility.

Edit: As for one of the systems suggested last page, I think that a specialization should be accessible from certain jobs, but having two different types of WHM depending on what class you choose to get there is an unncessary step. Leave that stuff for the specialization tree to handle. I like the idea conceptually, that a WHM that came up from a THM is different than a WHM that came up from a CON, but that's a lot of fiddly design that's somewhat unnecessary.

[Rhianu]

Also, we need to put the carrot on the stick for players.

The carrot on the stick is getting more customization as you level up. In FFX and FFXII, the Sphere Grid and License Board are available right off the bat, but you can't completely fill either of them up right away. You get to assign a few points in the beginning, and then a few more each time you gain a level. It's steady, constant progression, rather than staggered, gated progression.

[Kurokikaze]

Along with this system, I would like it if basic jobs could still advance, and those advancements would be used in cross-class skills.

I say this, because while the current cross-class system is... underwheming, it's a good idea and opens up a lot of different potentials in terms of builds and playstyles. My fear is that once specialization happens, the basics go away.

Basics in this case being the basic jobs. I personally always feel it's a waste to throw away stuff, but I'm not against re-doing it if absolutely necessary. With that said, should basic jobs advance along with specializations and advanced jobs, you could get a deep system that allows for plenty of customization.

Being able to switch specializations without great penalty (or none) I think is needed. As FF Online's hook (in a sense) is being able to experience everything without starting over.

In the end, specialization skills can only be used on that spec, while basic skills (such as ones you get from PUG, CON, etc) can be used on all jobs regardless of spec. Currently the motive to level jobs high is to be more versatile, and I like that the progress I've made on one job could help the job I want to play.

Another thing that worries me generally about this is SE's ability to design useful skills. Of course, every job has filler skills and useless trash, but in XIV I see a lot more useless skills and WS than useful ones. This is likely a side-effect of cross-class, but the skills seen are quite lacking in imagination and even more in utility.

Edit: As for one of the systems suggested last page, I think that a specialization should be accessible from certain jobs, but having two different types of WHM depending on what class you choose to get there is an unncessary step. Leave that stuff for the specialization tree to handle. I like the idea conceptually, that a WHM that came up from a THM is different than a WHM that came up from a CON, but that's a lot of fiddly design that's somewhat unnecessary.

The Base Class progress along with the Advanced Class. If you hit 50 PLD and reset your points you're now a 50GLA. Think of it like this "Gladiator-Paladin" or "Gladiator-Dark Knight". Riot Blade will be usable on either spec but not on another class.

Difference from how it works now:
Abilities that are learned while progressing Gladiator (some basic WS, generic buffs) can only be used by Classes that branch off from the base with a line drawn at a center level that says "any skills beyond this point cannot be used by anyone else".

Yeah I agree Elcura, execution is not SE's strong point. I've seen one too many things in update notes that at first I'm like "!!!!" but then "....".

[Kurokikaze]

The carrot on the stick is getting more customization as you level up. In FFX and FFXII, the Sphere Grid and License Board are available right off the bat, but you can't completely fill either of them up right away. You get to assign a few points in the beginning, and then a few more each time you gain a level. It's steady, constant progression, rather than staggered, gated progression.

You bring up a good point.

Edit: WORK IN PROGRESS. Someone help me come up with traits/skills/buffs etc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...kaze01/wip.png

[MysteryG]

A well crafted post! There's some really great ideas listed there.

Personally, I'd be happier just leveling different classes. I like the ability to switch between different classes on a whim. Just because I specialize my Conjurer as a healer, I suddenly block myself from being able to play as a Black Mage? No thanks.

I think just tweaking the existing system to function more like the subjob system would grant a clear benefit to certain classes; adding not just abilities, but stat/trait boosts from other classes. Anyone could run a Whm/Drg, but to be a good healer, it made more sense to have a caster as a sub due to the stats. I don't have a many solutions on how to make it better/different from XI though, so I'll refrain from suggesting it properly.

[Elcura]

The Base Class progress along with the Advanced Class. If you hit 50 PLD and reset your points you're now a 50GLA. Think of it like this "Gladiator-Paladin" or "Gladiator-Dark Knight". Riot Blade will be usable on either spec but not on another class.

This much I don't mind, more or less.

Difference from how it works now:
Abilities that are learned while progressing Gladiator (some basic WS, generic buffs) can only be used by Classes that branch off from the base with a line drawn at a center level that says "any skills beyond this point cannot be used by anyone else".

This is the difference for the most part. Let me try to illustrate what I'm thinking better (I did this on BG already, lol).

You have a 50 GLD that can turn into a DRK or PLD. You progress with DRK and/or PLD like you would intend them to. You gain skills for that specialization, and those are usable by GLD and all GLD related jobs (though mine was limiting in that only PLD could use PLD skills, and DRK could only use DRK skills).

But let's say, while leveling PLD or DRK, that your GLD grows at an equal or slower rate. So you could be a 50 GLD/50 DRK or 55 GLD/60 PLD. Whatever it is, that much doesn't matter. But the skills you gain for your GLD, and your GLD only (these skills aren't related to either DRK or PLD) could be used on any job. Say GLD got an ability to raise defense from all angles, you could use this on GLD, DRK or PLD.

But! If you were to use PUG now (and say PUG turns into MNK or THF), you would be able to use said GLD ability on PUG, THF, MNK, DRK, or PLD. However, skills you get from MNK or THF, are useable only on PUG, MNK or THF, and not on GLD, PLD or DRK.

Essentially, what it boils down to is you playing a specialization you want, getting skills for that and for the basic job that comes along with it as well as the ability to cross class BASIC skills.

I say all this, because I hate the idea of a class falling to the wayside. Besides that, even with your proposal, if you went from 75 DRK and wanted to repec to PLD, you would be a 75 GLD at some point. I think it makes sense, given what you said if GLD still gains its own skills. The difference being, that these skills are cross-class.

Edit:

And to add a little more on why I like cross-class abilities, it's because that progress feels tangible. The progress I made on MRD can be seen when I play THM or PUG. And while these abilities aren't always super useful or necessary, they do fill up slots and can help you further achieve your role and goal. Gaining defensive abilities from MRD isn't necessary, but then again neither is wearing any gear (I kid), but the fact remains that it's nice to see your progress like that.

And while this should remain relatively low key, it's a good boost to have.

[Kurokikaze]

Yeah I see what you're saying. Though, I feel they're going to have severely limit what the base classes learn: shift most of the good stuff into specs and leave generic abilities on the base that can be cross-classed with no limitations in regards to rank.

The main thing that I want to avoid, as I keep saying, is the overreaching that is going on.

[Starlord]

Now let's see how this pans out for our Gladiator.

- Quest is made available from guild at Rank 30. Trials of the Paladin or the Dark Knight.
* Paladin = Tank / increased damage mitigation, few minor healing spells
* Dark Knight = DD / increased damage output, few minor damage/debuff/absorbs spells
- For this example I'll pick PLD (its what I want to play).
- At rank 36 I'll get the Gladiator Quest and do it normally. Rage of Halone would be a skill that both specs could use (its obviously a tank skill so PLD would have talents to buff the output on it or turn some of that damage taken while charging into HP)
- At rank 40-42 I'll get a PLD Quest for a spec-specific weapon. Does this sound familar to anybody?
- At 46 (assuming the cap isn't increased for a while) we can introduce the quest chain for Artifact Armor.
- By max rank I'll have all my points used up in talents that help me perform my predefined role in groups and wearing some shiny armor that is indicative of a Final Fantasy class that I want to play.


I have effectively taken things from WoW/FFXI/FF in general and mixed them together. Yoshi-P said it himself; The fact that FFXIV tries to be so different from other games, even its predecessor, is what is harming it.

Flowchart for paths by Shuichi of BG forums: http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7...branchflow.png

FFXIV under Tanaka: Reinvent the wheel, end up with a square and wonder why it won’t roll.

For those that need a picture: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...alent-Tree.jpg

Example of what the tree could look like for Conjurer by Rhianu: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...censeBoard.png

Example of the specs by Solracht of BG:
http://i53.tinypic.com/5aqb6g.jpg

Talent trees or license board - they're both the same thing.

That’s a talent tree for the Paladin in World of Warcraft. What I'm proposing is in a sense the exact same thing except I'm using names that are staples in the Final Fantasy franchise. This will give players the sense that they are playing an "old school class" all while balancing current classes/skills (not replacing) and introducing new and exciting content for the game.

When SE decides to roll out new mid-high level content they must be balanced for use with these Advanced Classes and not the Base Class. These talents and path choice must be made so obvious and an overall upgrade to our base class that players will not need to use the base beyond a certain point. It'll still be a Gladiator - I just turned it into a Paladin down the road.

Now SE doesn't have to use this same example that I gave with Gladiator evolving into a Paladin or Dark Knight. Gladiator could also evolve into a Warrior but personally I feel that option is better left for Marauder.

Let's take a look at a few of the possible Advanced Classes / Specializations that can be made from our current classes:

Gladiator -> Paladin (tank) / Dark Knight (damage) / Thief (damage)
Marauder -> Warrior (damage or tank) / Berserker (damage)
Archer -> Ranger (damage) / Musketeer (damage) / Corsair (buffer) / Cannoneer (damage)
Lancer -> Dragoon (damage) / Samurai (damage or tank)
Pugilist -> Monk (damage or tank) / Ninja (damage or tank) / Thief (damage)

Conjurer -> Black Mage (damage) / White Mage (healer)
Thaumaturge -> Red Mage (heals/debuff) / Time Mage (debuff) / Summoner (damage or healer) / Mystic Knight (tank) / Necromancer (damage or tank)

These are examples using classes from Final Fantasy games. Some of these options might seem weird at first but that’s because I'm taking into consideration that Weapons = Classes in this game. In the case of Gladiator I added Thief because the "Dagger" weapon is currently considered a "Sword". I'm aware that with the way skills are currently distributed Thief would be a better option for Pugilist so I left it up there. Again these are EXAMPLES that others and myself have came up with, this not a clear cut path.

MINOR UPDATE:

Class Icons: There is no need to change them, just recolor them for specs. Pick a color that defines the spec and use it in the class icon. White mage would be the Conjurer icon but white. I don't think I need to give more examples... For most of the classes (from XI) that I listed there seems to be a definitive color already - just look at that classes' Artifact Armor.


POST-IMPLEMENTATION BENEFITS

Let's see what this does in regards to addressing the issues listed at the top of the post.

MAJOR:

1. No predefined roles:
These specs as you can see above will essentially be the roles that players take in parties. Gladiator/Paladin would be a tank and Gladiator/Dark Knight would be a damage dealer. People will know exactly what they have to do and work on building their characters to better fit those roles in parties. We have players in the game that currently don't have a clue what they should be doing because nothing has been set in stone for the player; Players wearing gear that is questionable for their class (I'm aware that stats don't work and that’s a WHOLE other issue that needs to be addressed shortly after fixing classes) or Thaumaturges tanking and soloing HNMs (the current system is broken and has allowed this) or Conjurers that want to deal damage because they have high tiered spells but can’t because any caster in this game is automatically a healer as established by the community.

2. Lack of class uniqueness:
The roles/advanced classes/specialization will be what makes these classes unique. They will have traits and abilities that can only be used while in that spec. In order to appease the players that have grown fond of using abilities from other disciplines; let them use skills from the class up until a certain rank or go through them all up to a certain rank and re-balance them for use cross-class. Unfortunately the thing that is repeated in both methods is "up to a certain rank" - don't be fooled: the line must be drawn somewhere to avoid exploiting and promote uniqueness across all classes. Personally I would re-balance skills up to Rank 20 and draw the line there. I can hear the complaints already from people who use Rank 30+ skills on other classes but these people are oblivious to the fact that that is killing other classes. Unfortunately this is something that I feel must be done. Whether or not SE decides to use specs – it’s going to happen, it’s just a matter of when (like the nerf to Punishing Barbs).

MINOR

1. Final Fantasy Identification:
Players who feel like the current classes are alienated from the series will no longer feel that way. Sure they will be starting as a class they are unfamiliar with but they will work towards a class they want to play. I'm going to use FFXI as an example for this to better explain the path:

After beta was over I decided that for FFXI-PC release I would level the Dragoon class. In order to do this I chose to do Warrior and level with a spear (because that was allowed) so that when I hit 30 and do the quest I could be well prepped for playing Dragoon. Others players may have done this as well, they definitely did it for other classes (Leveled WHM to play SMN). We, the players, chose certain paths because it lead to:
1) Playing the class we wanted.
2) The skills/weapon ranks from the previous class can be used to better serve the new class.

For FFXIV's case; all we're doing is removing the choice with this proposal. SE is telling you that if you want to play that Summoner you need to start as a Thaumaturge. A choice we would've made on our own using our better judgment. "These skills would be useful on my Summoner."

If you look at it this way; it is essentially the same thing with the exact same end results.


CLOSING

SE will have successfully addressed these issues and many more that plague the Armory System by introducing this into the game. This is an extension of the Armory System, rebalancing of abilities, and a culmination of other fixes to Final Fantasy XIV under the guise of the Dev Issue 1033: Class Name Changes.

This is a proposal by myself and others on the Blue Gartr Forums; feel free to agree/disagree/comment/change but ultimately it is up to SE to do what needs to be done.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Let me know if there are things that could be added that work with the concept.

I agree with this idea! Right now Im a 34 Lancer if they were to implement what you just said I would become a Samurai or Dragoon! I aslso think they should have a Secondary Option ( Simular to the Support job system in XI) Call me old school but I played FFXI for 7 years basically close to launch in NA ( about a year since it was out in NA), and thats what made XI so sucessful even though it started out bad kinda in Japan when it was first Launch a year later XI came to America with an Expanison Pack.

I Believe there doing the same thing over again in XIV only difference is they duf themselves a bigger hole but actually I see that "some" of the hole has been filled but they have a long ways to go.

Putting in a Specialization System would really give Classes unigueness ( will its a big step towards a right direction) and it gives Variety for players to choose from.

[avalonstormm]

I just want to point out that the class uniqueness and superb utilization of the current classes dont stand out only because there are no in game contents to push players to further "strategize" their skill set (abilities) when they play any of the existing classes...I mean for example...an archer is a very deadly dd class atm if you know how to combine/use abilities with other dd classes such as marauder and lancer but at this time..what's the point? I can only think of trying to apply this concept on solo grinding so that I can maximize my sp gain/hr but other than that I don't see any other reason.

Again Kurokikaze provided a really good post but it would only work if there is in game content that would push this idea to its true potential. I would say that SE needs to provide us (the players) more challenging in game content to enable us to push on trying to come up with different ideas on how to fully utilize the classes before diving on trying to get the class modifications...

[Firon]

I like this Idea but it seems to take away from the feel of leveling multi jobs which i always loved about XI i don't wanna level Glad to 50 and be an instant 50 PLD and DRK kinda beats the point of having a char that can learns everything to me =/. I wanna experience every job from the ground up