[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Kurokikaze]

Now let's see how this pans out for our Gladiator.

- Quest is made available from guild at Rank 30. Trials of the Paladin or the Dark Knight.
* Paladin = Tank / increased damage mitigation, few minor healing spells
* Dark Knight = DD / increased damage output, few minor damage/debuff/absorbs spells
- For this example I'll pick PLD (its what I want to play).
- At rank 36 I'll get the Gladiator Quest and do it normally. Rage of Halone would be a skill that both specs could use (its obviously a tank skill so PLD would have talents to buff the output on it or turn some of that damage taken while charging into HP)
- At rank 40-42 I'll get a PLD Quest for a spec-specific weapon. Does this sound familar to anybody?
- At 46 (assuming the cap isn't increased for a while) we can introduce the quest chain for Artifact Armor.
- By max rank I'll have all my points used up in talents that help me perform my predefined role in groups and wearing some shiny armor that is indicative of a Final Fantasy class that I want to play.


I have effectively taken things from WoW/FFXI/FF in general and mixed them together. Yoshi-P said it himself; The fact that FFXIV tries to be so different from other games, even its predecessor, is what is harming it.

Flowchart for paths by Shuichi of BG forums: http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7...branchflow.png

FFXIV under Tanaka: Reinvent the wheel, end up with a square and wonder why it won’t roll.

For those that need a picture: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...alent-Tree.jpg

Example of what the tree could look like for Conjurer by Rhianu: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...censeBoard.png

Example of the specs by Solracht of BG:
http://i53.tinypic.com/5aqb6g.jpg

Talent trees or license board - they're both the same thing.

That’s a talent tree for the Paladin in World of Warcraft. What I'm proposing is in a sense the exact same thing except I'm using names that are staples in the Final Fantasy franchise. This will give players the sense that they are playing an "old school class" all while balancing current classes/skills (not replacing) and introducing new and exciting content for the game.

When SE decides to roll out new mid-high level content they must be balanced for use with these Advanced Classes and not the Base Class. These talents and path choice must be made so obvious and an overall upgrade to our base class that players will not need to use the base beyond a certain point. It'll still be a Gladiator - I just turned it into a Paladin down the road.

Now SE doesn't have to use this same example that I gave with Gladiator evolving into a Paladin or Dark Knight. Gladiator could also evolve into a Warrior but personally I feel that option is better left for Marauder.

Let's take a look at a few of the possible Advanced Classes / Specializations that can be made from our current classes:

Gladiator -> Paladin (tank) / Dark Knight (damage) / Thief (damage)
Marauder -> Warrior (damage or tank) / Berserker (damage)
Archer -> Ranger (damage) / Musketeer (damage) / Corsair (buffer) / Cannoneer (damage)
Lancer -> Dragoon (damage) / Samurai (damage or tank)
Pugilist -> Monk (damage or tank) / Ninja (damage or tank) / Thief (damage)

Conjurer -> Black Mage (damage) / White Mage (healer)
Thaumaturge -> Red Mage (heals/debuff) / Time Mage (debuff) / Summoner (damage or healer) / Mystic Knight (tank) / Necromancer (damage or tank)

These are examples using classes from Final Fantasy games. Some of these options might seem weird at first but that’s because I'm taking into consideration that Weapons = Classes in this game. In the case of Gladiator I added Thief because the "Dagger" weapon is currently considered a "Sword". I'm aware that with the way skills are currently distributed Thief would be a better option for Pugilist so I left it up there. Again these are EXAMPLES that others and myself have came up with, this not a clear cut path.

MINOR UPDATE:

Class Icons: There is no need to change them, just recolor them for specs. Pick a color that defines the spec and use it in the class icon. White mage would be the Conjurer icon but white. I don't think I need to give more examples... For most of the classes (from XI) that I listed there seems to be a definitive color already - just look at that classes' Artifact Armor.


POST-IMPLEMENTATION BENEFITS

Let's see what this does in regards to addressing the issues listed at the top of the post.

MAJOR:

1. No predefined roles:
These specs as you can see above will essentially be the roles that players take in parties. Gladiator/Paladin would be a tank and Gladiator/Dark Knight would be a damage dealer. People will know exactly what they have to do and work on building their characters to better fit those roles in parties. We have players in the game that currently don't have a clue what they should be doing because nothing has been set in stone for the player; Players wearing gear that is questionable for their class (I'm aware that stats don't work and that’s a WHOLE other issue that needs to be addressed shortly after fixing classes) or Thaumaturges tanking and soloing HNMs (the current system is broken and has allowed this) or Conjurers that want to deal damage because they have high tiered spells but can’t because any caster in this game is automatically a healer as established by the community.

2. Lack of class uniqueness:
The roles/advanced classes/specialization will be what makes these classes unique. They will have traits and abilities that can only be used while in that spec. In order to appease the players that have grown fond of using abilities from other disciplines; let them use skills from the class up until a certain rank or go through them all up to a certain rank and re-balance them for use cross-class. Unfortunately the thing that is repeated in both methods is "up to a certain rank" - don't be fooled: the line must be drawn somewhere to avoid exploiting and promote uniqueness across all classes. Personally I would re-balance skills up to Rank 20 and draw the line there. I can hear the complaints already from people who use Rank 30+ skills on other classes but these people are oblivious to the fact that that is killing other classes. Unfortunately this is something that I feel must be done. Whether or not SE decides to use specs – it’s going to happen, it’s just a matter of when (like the nerf to Punishing Barbs).

MINOR

1. Final Fantasy Identification:
Players who feel like the current classes are alienated from the series will no longer feel that way. Sure they will be starting as a class they are unfamiliar with but they will work towards a class they want to play. I'm going to use FFXI as an example for this to better explain the path:

After beta was over I decided that for FFXI-PC release I would level the Dragoon class. In order to do this I chose to do Warrior and level with a spear (because that was allowed) so that when I hit 30 and do the quest I could be well prepped for playing Dragoon. Others players may have done this as well, they definitely did it for other classes (Leveled WHM to play SMN). We, the players, chose certain paths because it lead to:
1) Playing the class we wanted.
2) The skills/weapon ranks from the previous class can be used to better serve the new class.

For FFXIV's case; all we're doing is removing the choice with this proposal. SE is telling you that if you want to play that Summoner you need to start as a Thaumaturge. A choice we would've made on our own using our better judgment. "These skills would be useful on my Summoner."

If you look at it this way; it is essentially the same thing with the exact same end results.


CLOSING

SE will have successfully addressed these issues and many more that plague the Armory System by introducing this into the game. This is an extension of the Armory System, rebalancing of abilities, and a culmination of other fixes to Final Fantasy XIV under the guise of the Dev Issue 1033: Class Name Changes.

This is a proposal by myself and others on the Blue Gartr Forums; feel free to agree/disagree/comment/change but ultimately it is up to SE to do what needs to be done.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Let me know if there are things that could be added that work with the concept.

[Arasiel]

Gladiator -> Paladin (tank) / Dark Knight (damage) / Thief (damage)
Marauder -> Warrior (damage or tank) / Berserker (damage)
Archer -> Ranger (damage) / Musketeer (damage) / Corsair (buffer) / Cannoneer (damage)
Lancer -> Dragoon (damage) / Samurai (damage or tank)
Pugilist -> Monk (damage or tank) / Ninja (damage or tank) / Thief (damage)

I like all of this. I assume from current weapons we are getting Paladin, Dragoon, Warrior, Black Mage, White Mage, Thief, Monk, Dark Knight, Ranger.. and I would really like to see Ninja, Samurai, Mystic Knight hit the game and something to utilize the Gunblade.

[Spuffin]

I love you.

[Starlord]

Now let's see how this pans out for our Gladiator.

- Quest is made available from guild at Rank 30. Trials of the Paladin or the Dark Knight.
* Paladin = Tank / increased damage mitigation, few minor healing spells
* Dark Knight = DD / increased damage output, few minor damage/debuff/absorbs spells
- For this example I'll pick PLD (its what I want to play).
- At rank 36 I'll get the Gladiator Quest and do it normally. Rage of Halone would be a skill that both specs could use (its obviously a tank skill so PLD would have talents to buff the output on it or turn some of that damage taken while charging into HP)
- At rank 40-42 I'll get a PLD Quest for a spec-specific weapon. Does this sound familar to anybody?
- At 46 (assuming the cap isn't increased for a while) we can introduce the quest chain for Artifact Armor.
- By max rank I'll have all my points used up in talents that help me perform my predefined role in groups and wearing some shiny armor that is indicative of a Final Fantasy class that I want to play.


I have effectively taken things from WoW/FFXI/FF in general and mixed them together. Yoshi-P said it himself; The fact that FFXIV tries to be so different from other games, even its predecessor, is what is harming it.

Flowchart for paths by Shuichi of BG forums: http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7...branchflow.png

FFXIV under Tanaka: Reinvent the wheel, end up with a square and wonder why it won’t roll.

For those that need a picture: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...alent-Tree.jpg

Example of what the tree could look like for Conjurer by Rhianu: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...censeBoard.png

Example of the specs by Solracht of BG:
http://i53.tinypic.com/5aqb6g.jpg

Talent trees or license board - they're both the same thing.

That’s a talent tree for the Paladin in World of Warcraft. What I'm proposing is in a sense the exact same thing except I'm using names that are staples in the Final Fantasy franchise. This will give players the sense that they are playing an "old school class" all while balancing current classes/skills (not replacing) and introducing new and exciting content for the game.

When SE decides to roll out new mid-high level content they must be balanced for use with these Advanced Classes and not the Base Class. These talents and path choice must be made so obvious and an overall upgrade to our base class that players will not need to use the base beyond a certain point. It'll still be a Gladiator - I just turned it into a Paladin down the road.

Now SE doesn't have to use this same example that I gave with Gladiator evolving into a Paladin or Dark Knight. Gladiator could also evolve into a Warrior but personally I feel that option is better left for Marauder.

Let's take a look at a few of the possible Advanced Classes / Specializations that can be made from our current classes:

Gladiator -> Paladin (tank) / Dark Knight (damage) / Thief (damage)
Marauder -> Warrior (damage or tank) / Berserker (damage)
Archer -> Ranger (damage) / Musketeer (damage) / Corsair (buffer) / Cannoneer (damage)
Lancer -> Dragoon (damage) / Samurai (damage or tank)
Pugilist -> Monk (damage or tank) / Ninja (damage or tank) / Thief (damage)

Conjurer -> Black Mage (damage) / White Mage (healer)
Thaumaturge -> Red Mage (heals/debuff) / Time Mage (debuff) / Summoner (damage or healer) / Mystic Knight (tank) / Necromancer (damage or tank)

These are examples using classes from Final Fantasy games. Some of these options might seem weird at first but that’s because I'm taking into consideration that Weapons = Classes in this game. In the case of Gladiator I added Thief because the "Dagger" weapon is currently considered a "Sword". I'm aware that with the way skills are currently distributed Thief would be a better option for Pugilist so I left it up there. Again these are EXAMPLES that others and myself have came up with, this not a clear cut path.

MINOR UPDATE:

Class Icons: There is no need to change them, just recolor them for specs. Pick a color that defines the spec and use it in the class icon. White mage would be the Conjurer icon but white. I don't think I need to give more examples... For most of the classes (from XI) that I listed there seems to be a definitive color already - just look at that classes' Artifact Armor.


POST-IMPLEMENTATION BENEFITS

Let's see what this does in regards to addressing the issues listed at the top of the post.

MAJOR:

1. No predefined roles:
These specs as you can see above will essentially be the roles that players take in parties. Gladiator/Paladin would be a tank and Gladiator/Dark Knight would be a damage dealer. People will know exactly what they have to do and work on building their characters to better fit those roles in parties. We have players in the game that currently don't have a clue what they should be doing because nothing has been set in stone for the player; Players wearing gear that is questionable for their class (I'm aware that stats don't work and that’s a WHOLE other issue that needs to be addressed shortly after fixing classes) or Thaumaturges tanking and soloing HNMs (the current system is broken and has allowed this) or Conjurers that want to deal damage because they have high tiered spells but can’t because any caster in this game is automatically a healer as established by the community.

2. Lack of class uniqueness:
The roles/advanced classes/specialization will be what makes these classes unique. They will have traits and abilities that can only be used while in that spec. In order to appease the players that have grown fond of using abilities from other disciplines; let them use skills from the class up until a certain rank or go through them all up to a certain rank and re-balance them for use cross-class. Unfortunately the thing that is repeated in both methods is "up to a certain rank" - don't be fooled: the line must be drawn somewhere to avoid exploiting and promote uniqueness across all classes. Personally I would re-balance skills up to Rank 20 and draw the line there. I can hear the complaints already from people who use Rank 30+ skills on other classes but these people are oblivious to the fact that that is killing other classes. Unfortunately this is something that I feel must be done. Whether or not SE decides to use specs – it’s going to happen, it’s just a matter of when (like the nerf to Punishing Barbs).

MINOR

1. Final Fantasy Identification:
Players who feel like the current classes are alienated from the series will no longer feel that way. Sure they will be starting as a class they are unfamiliar with but they will work towards a class they want to play. I'm going to use FFXI as an example for this to better explain the path:

After beta was over I decided that for FFXI-PC release I would level the Dragoon class. In order to do this I chose to do Warrior and level with a spear (because that was allowed) so that when I hit 30 and do the quest I could be well prepped for playing Dragoon. Others players may have done this as well, they definitely did it for other classes (Leveled WHM to play SMN). We, the players, chose certain paths because it lead to:
1) Playing the class we wanted.
2) The skills/weapon ranks from the previous class can be used to better serve the new class.

For FFXIV's case; all we're doing is removing the choice with this proposal. SE is telling you that if you want to play that Summoner you need to start as a Thaumaturge. A choice we would've made on our own using our better judgment. "These skills would be useful on my Summoner."

If you look at it this way; it is essentially the same thing with the exact same end results.


CLOSING

SE will have successfully addressed these issues and many more that plague the Armory System by introducing this into the game. This is an extension of the Armory System, rebalancing of abilities, and a culmination of other fixes to Final Fantasy XIV under the guise of the Dev Issue 1033: Class Name Changes.

This is a proposal by myself and others on the Blue Gartr Forums; feel free to agree/disagree/comment/change but ultimately it is up to SE to do what needs to be done.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Let me know if there are things that could be added that work with the concept.

I agree with this idea! Right now Im a 34 Lancer if they were to implement what you just said I would become a Samurai or Dragoon! I aslso think they should have a Secondary Option ( Simular to the Support job system in XI) Call me old school but I played FFXI for 7 years basically close to launch in NA ( about a year since it was out in NA), and thats what made XI so sucessful even though it started out bad kinda in Japan when it was first Launch a year later XI came to America with an Expanison Pack.

I Believe there doing the same thing over again in XIV only difference is they duf themselves a bigger hole but actually I see that "some" of the hole has been filled but they have a long ways to go.

Putting in a Specialization System would really give Classes unigueness ( will its a big step towards a right direction) and it gives Variety for players to choose from.

[Shikyo]

guy u should be on the devo team, but its too but that with a idea like this the game would greatly improve yet for some reason i dont think SE is listening to the real players... i hope they read these post and take players like u seriously

[VagabondPriest]

Kurokikaze I gotta admit this is a well put together thought and very well explained but I don't like the idea of restricting my freedom that SE has given me in this game. I like the idea SE saying about bring back classic jobs like you are proposing but I would like the freedom of choosing my weapons, skills and class. Where I can mix Dark knight with Marauder, Lancer, or be it Archer. Its the freedom I like and its what makes it so different from FFXI. I would understand keeping Disciples of War (like Dark Knight, Dragoon, Paladin, Monk, Ninja, and Samurai) with War and Disciples of Magic (like Summoner, Black Mage, White Mage, Red Mage, Blue Mage and etc.) with Magic. I also understand the difficulty of have for example a Monk (which is a Bare fist fighter or fights with a staff job) mix with a GLA but I like some of the class unique abilities and how some of them work better with the same class. What you are proposing is another system like the Point System for attributes. Sure its a good idea but it means I can't be that flexible because I gotta go back and change choices between Paladin and Dark. Meaning for example 75% of the server choose Dark and a party is looking for an available Paladin Tank it sounds like we are out of luck til someone goes back and redo there Job quests. (Could happen some servers look pretty empty like 400 people the most)

Hopefully I read your thread wrong and I am misunderstanding something so I am gonna just as questions instead and if you wish to answer me I would be grateful.

1. If I should Dark Knight would I be able to do Paladin as well and fully level and unlock all talents at the same time?

2. Being a Dark Knight I am restricted to GLA class meaning only Sword and Shield or Great Sword? So that means no Scythe, No Great Axe, and No more mixing weapon skills or anything else? just like FFXI?

3. With the Talent Tree, we are talking like merit points? meaning you only get a limit and we cannot fully explore every option unless retaking the points we put in and reallocating them? Or make a whole new character?


Just a few questions to make up my mind. If what I understand is correct than I would be dissappointed in the choice the gaming community is trying to take because I can clearly see alot of people agree with you. Other than that if you answer my questions I appreciate it and again you did a great job in creating a impressive thread.