[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Betelgeuzah]

Sure you can find a few CONs or THMs to heal but lemme find one that doesn't get pigeonholed into it and gets to nuke. Not a single one. Thats a problem with 1. the class, 2. the abilities.

IMO that's a problem with the combat mechanics more than anything. If the game doesn't encourage nuking there's no difference between having a SCH that always heals in a party or having a BLM that never gets to participate in anything.

They could simply make the current nukes stronger and nukers more important- no need to necessarily introduce a "BLM". Both solve the same problem- that nukers aren't currently needed.

[Kurokikaze]

Ok so after rereading the initial posts, edits, and several pages, I have a suggestion/concern. With this system, a player could master all the abilities/skills/traits from a job without even playing it for a minute? For example, a current rank 50 gladiator would have access to all the DRK skills after completing their respective quest?

Forgive me if it has been brought up before, but I would suggest that you need to play a specific role/job (say DRK) to earn points in this particular job. I'm all for allocation of points through a path and reallocation of points within that path, but I think 2 different jobs should have completely independent paths. I think I would prefer earning DRK points separately from PLD points and not be able to interchange the said points.

As the OP said one of the main reason I have liked XI so much is that you can do everything with a single char. Personally, character progression is my biggest incentive to play the game, so I would like to feel like every ability that I use and that defines my playstyle have been earned and mastered.

This is an example of how I could see two propositions mesh together, i-e the title system that is on top of your class and the talent-tree mechanic that defines of how you progress in that said title/job.

These are specializations of the current jobs. Whoever has a 50 in a current job will be able to allot points into whatever classes branch of from them. This cannot be modified to require more grinding because then you run into that problem that I've been asking other people:

"What happens to level 50 players?"

The only way you feel that the two different roles should be treated differently is because we're:

1. Used to FFXI.
2. Introducing this 6 months into the games life and we're all beyond the threshold I'm proposing.

It'll be a logical change once people see how it pans out and get a feel for it. The point is that you don't want to anger your current end-game players because they took the time to grind out their characters. Telling them to go grind some more before they can start focusing on end game content when they're already maxed out is really bad.

^ this has been a big issue for a lot of us when we read the other proposals. They tell you grind an advanced job to perform and I think thats utter bullshit.

If this gets implemented:

- Log in
- Do quests for paths.
- Allot points to a path, spend extra points in the other or use some for cross-base abilities.
- Go do your raid not grind / Do quests for gear (if implemented; my guess is no)


I think what you have a problem with is that people won't know their jobs and to that I say.. They've been mix-matching skills to try to become those same jobs; I'm just making the choice more obvious and giving them bonuses for it.

[Kurokikaze]

IMO that's a problem with the combat mechanics more than anything. If the game doesn't encourage nuking there's no difference between having a SCH that always heals in a party or having a BLM that never gets to participate in anything.

They could simply make the current nukes stronger and nukers more important- no need to necessarily introduce a "BLM". Both solve the same problem- that nukers aren't currently needed.

They would still need something that says "Theres no way around it - this person is a damage dealer." Or we're going to be in the same exact place we're in now. Thats accomplished by calling it BLM because its just that easy to understand.

[Betelgeuzah]

The point is that you don't want to anger your current end-game players because they took the time to grind out their characters. Telling them to go grind some more before they can start focusing on end game content when they're already maxed out is really bad.

To hell with the current players. 30k or what? A drop in the ocean. They shouldn't make their decisions based on a potentially a tiny minority. And if these 30k stay as the majority, they may as well close the shop.

They would still need something that says "Theres no way around it - this person is a damage dealer." Or we're going to be in the same exact place we're in now.

I don't think you have much basis for this assumption (or, at least I'd like to hear what it is). What they need is for the role to have a purpose. If a nuker is needed, it'll be popular.

[Kurokikaze]

To hell with the current players. 30k or what? A drop in the ocean. They shouldn't make their decisions based on a potentially a tiny minority. And if these 30k stay as the majority, they may as well close the shop.

I agree with that point to a certain extent. Theres A LOT of current players on this board who if they have their say, and are heard, will drive this game into the ground.

Having said that, this is not one of the places where you anger your current playerbase - especially when you said you wouldn't do that. Yoshi-P has stated that there won't be any changes that are/or feel like a wipe. Telling people to go grind more after capping is just that. Unless of course its a cap increase but we're a long way from that.

[Betelgeuzah]

Having said that, this is not one of the places where you anger your current playerbase - especially when you said you wouldn't do that. Yoshi-P has stated that there won't be any changes that are/or feel like a wipe. Telling people to go grind more after capping is just that.

I don't think it's this black-and-white, but in the end I admit I like multipurpose classes for the sake of non-hassle grouping instead of specialized classes that are restricted like WHM and BLM were in XI. How you achieve this multipurpose is the interesting part. Too bad because they are dead-set on introducing the old class names there's not much chance we can have a paladin that can tank and dd. The old stigmas come into play (that they wanted to avoid in the first place..)

I do think that it shouldn't be so that you can just level paladin and dark knight simultaneously, or one alongside the other. There is just something wrong about that. Maybe not make us level the classes separately but something else then. If as the result your current classes end up being "stronger" at their roles I don't think it's too much asked and doesn't count as a "wipe"- just an equal exchange. You have to work to gain the same benefits with the now stronger classes, but not like you have to completely restart your progress.

[Kurokikaze]

Well since you put it that way I'll just say this;

Think of GLA specced into PLD as the PLD/WAR and GLA specced into DRK as a PLD/NIN in meleeburns (er only stronger). It's sorta the same thing its just that I'm using very cut and dry names for them. You hear a DRK or PLD and you immediately know what they do/roles they fill because you cannot accept/comprehend otherwise. We've been getting fed this for 20 years now and I feel its something they need to go back to for those players that felt they couldn't relate with the current classes and left.

They could use the spec system and use completely different names and it'll be the same thing. But they intend to introduce regular FF classes so I figured why not do it in a way that gives our current progress a purpose. Hey... maybe they could throw people a curveball and DRK isn't even a damage dealer and is actually a sort of blood-tank. They could do whatever they want with these specs but its important to keep that "FF branding" on it.

Maybe you're right and there should be some sort of extra progression but trust me - another grind is not one.

[Betelgeuzah]

Hm, it can be another grind, but a different kind of one. What that means, who knows! lolz

Either way, if it was about PLD/WAR and PLD/NIN there would be no problem (aside from the "QQ PLD is no DD durrr" talk). It's how I imagined the system could be changed to. But its hard because they'd have to redo a lot of current stuff to make Gladiator into Paladin for example. They could have just given Gladiator more uniqueness to allow for tank/DD builds but I guess they have no time to think up any ways to do that? I don't know. I guess there's some sort of desire for "THIS CLASS HAS ORANGE ARMOR, THIS CLASS HAS GREEN ARMOR, AND THIS ONE HERE IS PURPLE WITH A DRAGON: THEY R DIFFERENT" although they could have just made Gladiator red like ferra...warrior or something. Then rename the skills into "Caesar's Wrath" and "Olympos Strike" and w/e and call it a day.

Anyway, now it seems to be about PLD and a DRK that specialize from Gladiator. That's just too great of a difference between two classes in my opinion. When I level PLD, why should my DRK go up? There's just something inherently wrong here!

Could we figure out something to solve the problem?

[Kurokikaze]

Hm, it can be another grind, but a different kind of one. What that means, who knows! lolz

Either way, if it was about PLD/WAR and PLD/NIN there would be no problem (aside from the "QQ PLD is no DD durrr" talk). It's how I imagined the system could be changed to. But its hard because they'd have to redo a lot of current stuff to make Gladiator into Paladin for example. They could have just given Gladiator more uniqueness to allow for tank/DD builds but I guess they have no time to think up any ways to do that? I don't know. I guess there's some sort of desire for "THIS CLASS HAS ORANGE ARMOR, THIS CLASS HAS GREEN ARMOR, AND THIS ONE HERE IS PURPLE WITH A DRAGON: THEY R DIFFERENT" although they could have just made Gladiator red like ferra...warrior or something. Then rename the skills into "Caesar's Wrath" and "Olympos Strike" and w/e and call it a day.

Anyway, now it seems to be about PLD and a DRK that specialize from Gladiator. That's just too great of a difference between two classes in my opinion. When I level PLD, why should my DRK go up? There's just something inherently wrong here!

Could we figure out something to solve the problem?

Its inherently wrong because you're so used to seeing those classes in set roles and they've been working pretty much the same since they were introduced into the franchise. You don't have a problem with the concept but with the names.

All I'm saying is that the Gladiator can focus on being a damage dealer or a tank. Then I'm putting a name that people can relate to on top of it. Theres nothing wrong with that - people try to do it now. It could just be "GLA - Tanking Section" and "GLA Damage Section". lol

I'm taking abilities from Gladiator (and every other class) and spreading them out onto the branches. The tank ones would go under the tank section (obsess, phalanx, etc) and the damage ones go under the damage dealer branch (still precision etc). Obviously we add some more that fall in line with the mythos and give bonuses for focusing on one or the other (Tank: 5% passive damage reduction). Gladiator has some WS that can be used between both, and each section has their own unique WS or an enhancement to a current one.

Tank - While charging Rage of Halone you absorb 25% of the damage dealt to you.
Damage Dealer - Idk come up with something and get back to me.

The main point is this... The class is STILL Gladiator. I'm just giving them bonuses, skills/abilities and a new name for focusing on one thing instead of trying to be a "jack of all, master of none". You're not leveling PLD or DRK, you're leveling your GLA and deciding to use the playstyle of one or the other (and switch when you want).

As I said, its the association I made that you have an issue with.

Edit: You're right. They could have used those random names but as was said... they intend on bringing back FF classes. I wouldn't have suggested it like this if Yoshi-P wasn't already considering it. Which is why I like that we talk about changes to the game (on BG) after Yoshi-P has chimed in on what they have in mind for it. Otherwise we'd just be like most of these forums; random suggestions with a lack of direction.

[Betelgeuzah]

You don't have a problem with the concept but with the names.

Well, say, if Dark Knight behaved and acted like a Paladin but were a DD I wouldn't have a problem. But the concept itself is "dark", "evil", and the skills would definitely represent this (since they need to stand out, right?). The concept of Dark Knight and Paladin is the problem, not necessarily the names.

And why I bring this up, is not because you used it in your example- it's because that's what the dev team is planning to do. Believe me, I would love to not see Gladiator become an inferior stepping stone for the 'normal' classes- but they've got the art for armor ready and everything!

It's why I'm not sure whether we should make our discussion be based on a concept that seems to be going down the drain at the moment. Even making the game full of SCH's with a different "theme" (with abilities and spells you can't use cross-class after a certain threshold, of course) and expanding on that with armor and skills that represent the theme would have sufficed.

But now it seems BLM is coming, DRK is coming and PLD is coming... and most likely will be used as specializations of the existing classes. So now we need to figure out a solution to the problem of DRK and PLD coming from the same class and which level up simultaneously.. but how?

EDIT: Well it's not us that needs to figure this shit out lol but we can nudge the developers towards something potentially good instead of the *grind 'till your ears fall off*-solution aye?