[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Ayerc]

When I was typing it up, I figured it may be subbed on any main, not just the GLA tree. I hadn't thought about a three tier system though.

I'm a believer that if I know a skill, I know it, regardless of my profession. Of course that skill should have a greater affinity when used as a main. Integrating a third tier is just an extension of that, as (in the example) GLA is the main class, PUG is not. I could make that compromise.

The work definitely has to be there, it should take time and effort to gain bonuses to the base skill. Just like meriting did. I'm not sure I'd limit it to just 10 upgrades, either. Probably capping when the third tier effectiveness matches the original base of 20% (13 upgrades in this case)? If the guild cost is multiplied for subsequent bonuses, the diminished return would be naturally prohibitive, unless someone really wanted to invest in it. Starting at a 2k GM base with a multiplier of 1.25 would mean you'd need about 66,500 GM total to reach your tenth upgrade. And over 137k to reach 13 (that's a cost of about 29,100 GM for the 12>13 upgrade of +1%). But when you're at endgame with nothing better to do...why not. If you want a PUG with Soul Eater at full effectiveness, it just adds to the uniqueness as there would be very few people to take it that far, also making that character a little more epic in that regard.


Edit response:

It's somewhat in the game already. But not everything in the game currently is broken either, just needs some tweaking or re-envisioning.

[Jericho]

I love it.

I think that sort of idea can easily go along with Kuro's original ideas and mine. Mine is almost the same, but strays away from Talent Points and lets you level both jobs independently (30+) more or less, being a branch of the original classes. So far, after reading a few more Dev1033 tagged threads, I like the ideas formulating on this thread the most and I believe they would be the easiest for SE to implement.

Oh, and I am also going off the idea that 50 is not going to be the overall standard level cap, once the game gets going it'll be pushed up. I don't know if 75 will be the magic number they'll stick with for the bulk of the experience, or 80, or 100, or whatever, but I'm willing to bet it won't stay at 50.

[Jericho]

An example of a two spec per base class system...
*Note* I gave LNC the pole, then changed the names for THM and CON which both already use different staves for two new classes of weapons. Yes, we have three different types of staves.
*Note2* For the Pup suggestion... Think of staff wielding as Gabrielle on Xena, not a back-line weapon.
*Note3* In order to keep too much content from being released, maybe stick with base classes until the release of the first expansion (or more appropriately, the first expansion + ps3 release)
*...note4...* I'm obviously slightly ffxi biased... kekeke


Original Jobs:

Gladiator (Sword/Shield, Great Sword) -> Dark Knight (Great Sword), Paladin (Sword/Shield)
*Both use magic (dark/light) and have abilities that enhance said magics, and attack/def respectively*

Pugilist (H2H, Dagger(s)) -> Monk (H2H), Thief (Dagger(s))
*Both specialize in evasiveness and speed, as well as targeting weaknesses*

Marauder (Great Axe, Axe(s)) -> Warrior (Great Axe), Beastmaster (Axe(s))
*Both can be powerful damage dealers, War excelling and Bst focusing on intimidation?*

Archer (Bow, Gun) -> Ranger (Bow), Corsair (Gun)
*Obviously, both are ranged damage dealers, possibly buffs or random stuff for Cor*

Lancer (Spear, Pole) -> Dragoon (Spear), Puppetmaster (Pole)
*Both begin focusing on have a companion to fight with you*

Thaumaturge (Scepter/Shield, Staff) -> Red Mage (Scepter/Shield), Scholar (Staff)
*Both focus on keep MP regenerated and different buffs/debuffs*

Conjurer (Wand/Shield, Cane) -> White Mage (Wand/Shield), Black Mage (Cane)
*Enough said*


Expansions:

Ronin (Katana(s), Great Katana) -> Ninja (Katana(s)), Samurai (Great Katana)
*Evasion, eastern technique, etc*

Performer (Jambiya, Instruments) -> Dancer (Jambiya), Bard (Instruments)
*Buffing the party, etc*

Sage? (Scimitar, Clubs) -> Blue Mage (Scimitar), Summoner (Clubs)
*Focus on enemy skills and the summoning the elements*


My posts on this thread belong to Kuro to do as he pleases, btw. I believe this is an awesome thread with a really great OP who is taking the time to hold a discussion, listen to input, and construct an easy to read option for SE in the first three posts here.


**EDIT**

ACTUALLY! Who says all jobs have to have both specializations right away? To spread it out, some of the original base classes could only have 1 specialization for now, while an expansion could release more base classes with only one, or finish up an older base class. More to consider.

[VagabondPriest]

Kurokikaze I gotta admit this is a well put together thought and very well explained but I don't like the idea of restricting my freedom that SE has given me in this game. I like the idea SE saying about bring back classic jobs like you are proposing but I would like the freedom of choosing my weapons, skills and class. Where I can mix Dark knight with Marauder, Lancer, or be it Archer. Its the freedom I like and its what makes it so different from FFXI. I would understand keeping Disciples of War (like Dark Knight, Dragoon, Paladin, Monk, Ninja, and Samurai) with War and Disciples of Magic (like Summoner, Black Mage, White Mage, Red Mage, Blue Mage and etc.) with Magic. I also understand the difficulty of have for example a Monk (which is a Bare fist fighter or fights with a staff job) mix with a GLA but I like some of the class unique abilities and how some of them work better with the same class. What you are proposing is another system like the Point System for attributes. Sure its a good idea but it means I can't be that flexible because I gotta go back and change choices between Paladin and Dark. Meaning for example 75% of the server choose Dark and a party is looking for an available Paladin Tank it sounds like we are out of luck til someone goes back and redo there Job quests. (Could happen some servers look pretty empty like 400 people the most)

Hopefully I read your thread wrong and I am misunderstanding something so I am gonna just as questions instead and if you wish to answer me I would be grateful.

1. If I should Dark Knight would I be able to do Paladin as well and fully level and unlock all talents at the same time?

2. Being a Dark Knight I am restricted to GLA class meaning only Sword and Shield or Great Sword? So that means no Scythe, No Great Axe, and No more mixing weapon skills or anything else? just like FFXI?

3. With the Talent Tree, we are talking like merit points? meaning you only get a limit and we cannot fully explore every option unless retaking the points we put in and reallocating them? Or make a whole new character?


Just a few questions to make up my mind. If what I understand is correct than I would be dissappointed in the choice the gaming community is trying to take because I can clearly see alot of people agree with you. Other than that if you answer my questions I appreciate it and again you did a great job in creating a impressive thread.

[VagabondPriest]

When I was typing it up, I figured it may be subbed on any main, not just the GLA tree. I hadn't thought about a three tier system though.

I'm a believer that if I know a skill, I know it, regardless of my profession. Of course that skill should have a greater affinity when used as a main. Integrating a third tier is just an extension of that, as (in the example) GLA is the main class, PUG is not. I could make that compromise.

The work definitely has to be there, it should take time and effort to gain bonuses to the base skill. Just like meriting did. I'm not sure I'd limit it to just 10 upgrades, either. Probably capping when the third tier effectiveness matches the original base of 20% (13 upgrades in this case)? If the guild cost is multiplied for subsequent bonuses, the diminished return would be naturally prohibitive, unless someone really wanted to invest in it. Starting at a 2k GM base with a multiplier of 1.25 would mean you'd need about 66,500 GM total to reach your tenth upgrade. And over 137k to reach 13 (that's a cost of about 29,100 GM for the 12>13 upgrade of +1%). But when you're at endgame with nothing better to do...why not. If you want a PUG with Soul Eater at full effectiveness, it just adds to the uniqueness as there would be very few people to take it that far, also making that character a little more epic in that regard.


Edit response:

It's somewhat in the game already. But not everything in the game currently is broken either, just needs some tweaking or re-envisioning.

I just read this post after posting my post and totally agree with this guy!!!

[Ayerc]

Just so Kuro doesn't go crazy, I'll attempt to try and answer these for you, Vagabond.

1. Yes, assuming you have unlocked both the Dark Knight and Paladin specializations, you will be able to unlock both to their full potential.

2. Sword/Shield and Great Sword are being used as examples here. That's not to say that a DRK won't be able to equip a scythe as a specialization only weapon type.

3. Yes and no to this one. Yes, you only get a certain number of points to spend, but you can reallocate them however you like. There's no need to make a new character to explore all the options, but you can't have all the skills active at the same time.

Jericho and I just discussed an option that may address some of your concerns about limiting cross class choices, have a look at the last few pages for more info.

Edit: Oh, looks like you did have a look. Rockin'.

[VagabondPriest]

Again, you're not fixing anything and adding to the mess. Ok so you keep your GLA levels (because we cant make you re-grind) but SE now has to balance this class against the others.

How does GLA stand on its own is a better way to re-phrase the question. By the way.. what you're suggesting is not even specializations they are brand new classes.

Whats stopping someone from taking a ton of CON/THM spells, some attack buffs, etc and calling themselves a DRK? <--- Using our current system.

Correct, nothing is stopping them and its not what is being balanced for.

I disagree, the whole point of adding Jobs on the classes is to concentrate on different stats and bring in some unique abilities atop of the class you mix it with, and when SE takes out the Point System of Stats and have each class its own set of Stats. Based on the class customizing Jobs will help the player reach their goals. A GLA is not a Paladin since he can still do quite the damage on his own and when equipping a paladin you are sacrificing Att for Def. Also you might want to rank up GLA on its own just to keep the neutral stats.

I understand this is not what you are arguing, but I am a fan of DRK and I leveled CON and THM just to make my DoW classes into a DRK and I had a great deal of fun trying out the different types with ARC, MRD, LNC, PUG and GLA. I was greatly disappointed that even with the Stats I had which favored Mages my drain would do so little damage, plus I do not have the AoE that a THM or CON does (which I completely understand that we need a little restriction to create a balance). I even allocated my elemental stats to favor dark spells following Zam input for Spells attributes which I now am seeing doesnt really make a differents. So It makes sense having a DRK job to equip on any class to improve not only your STR and INT but take away your VIT and MND. The DRK would also improve on your dark elemental stats (or the elemental Stats that dark is based on).

Anyways I am just saying earning a job meaning I went through the quests, did what I did to earn it, or be it I had to skill up the weapon like in FF2 (japan version which is re-release all over the place) just to use it with other class I don't mine as long as I can customize my character and be different from other people. Having a whole bunch of GLA/DRK is not unique and sounds to much FFXI which I agree is a awesome game but I am playing FFXIV for its freedom and not the restrictions.

P.S. I understand everything is just a idea and concept you guys like so I am not trying to bash your thoughts in any way. In truth I believe your idea will bring out more challenge to the game then my own idea as my concept sounds more for soloing than team playing. So please forgive my thoughts on the subject.

[Jericho]

Vega, just to clarify, what Kuro originally proposed and what Ayerc and I have been discussing, still allows for the same degree of uniqueness. All the abilities and traits you've been using to construct your own DRK are still in effect here. All we're adding is a few specialized class abilities/traits and a unique weapon type. All those abilities and traits that are already usable on GLA will be usable on GLA: DRK, along with some new ones.

[OmegaNovaios]

@northernsky It wasn't really to that comparison post but Cairdaes shameless plugging of an idea he supports. I don't jump in his thread and route viewers this way, I would appreciate it if he doesn't do it here. I thought we agreed to disagree.

Not trying to kill the mood here, but I have no idea why you would disagree to comparing two proposals. One must be better than the other or if in an extremely rare event that the two proposals are equal where all pros and cons are compared it should come down to majority vote which the people want. Now my reasoning behind this post is that more people flock to the bigger (most posts in) thread and thus ignore/overlook other proposals. Now assuming there is no ego involved into this equation there shouldn't be any hardships comparing proposals and if there is an ego involved then if this threads OP is preferred then this post will be ignored/overlooked. Again I simply want FFXIV to be the best it can be and respect the decision of the proposal the people/SE want.

These are specializations of the current jobs. Whoever has a 50 in a current job will be able to allot points into whatever classes branch of from them. This cannot be modified to require more grinding because then you run into that problem that I've been asking other people:

"What happens to level 50 players?"

It'll be a logical change once people see how it pans out and get a feel for it. The point is that you don't want to anger your current end-game players because they took the time to grind out their characters. Telling them to go grind some more before they can start focusing on end game content when they're already maxed out is really bad.

^ this has been a big issue for a lot of us when we read the other proposals. They tell you grind an advanced job to perform and I think thats utter bullshit.

If this gets implemented:

- Log in
- Do quests for paths.
- Allot points to a path, spend extra points in the other or use some for cross-base abilities.
- Go do your raid not grind / Do quests for gear (if implemented; my guess is no)


I think what you have a problem with is that people won't know their jobs and to that I say.. They've been mix-matching skills to try to become those same jobs; I'm just making the choice more obvious and giving them bonuses for it.

Obviously something needs to be changed here from what is currently in place (forcing people to rank everything because skills to make the best option for most roles is spread out on multiple classes). This is VERY BAD. The fix for this is to heavily penalize every action individually based on class, because there is basically no penalty other than cool down times or restricting spells from being AOEd.

This OP's proposal is fixes this, but I think there is a better way.

Now as for Rank 50's having to "grind" some more it's inevitable even with this OP's proposal because it would be similar to FFXI's merit system. I guarantee you SE will force you to do something to acquire those talent/merit points.

Granted it is no where near as grand as leveling all classes to Rank 50, but I think the option to be MORE UNIQUE not MORE POWERFUL should still be there for those who Ranked multiple classes or who still wants to rank multiple classes.

As for the Title System this can easily be compared to leveling a sub job for your main job in FFXI. Was that too much effort to put into making yourself stronger (assuming there won't be a hardship of constantly forming a party to do so)?

Think of GLA specced into PLD as the PLD/WAR and GLA specced into DRK as a PLD/NIN in meleeburns (er only stronger). It's sorta the same thing its just that I'm using very cut and dry names for them. You hear a DRK or PLD and you immediately know what they do/roles they fill because you cannot accept/comprehend otherwise. We've been getting fed this for 20 years now and I feel its something they need to go back to for those players that felt they couldn't relate with the current classes and left.

Maybe you're right and there should be some sort of extra progression but trust me - another grind is not one.

My biggest concern here is PLD can do /WAR, /NIN, /BLU, /RDM, and /DNC effectively (and I know you were making a different example to PLD and DRK but I think having specializations that determine your role instead of a combination that determines your role is more limiting).

Also, I hate grinding as well. Now you can see from my signature than I don't have many nor even 1 rank 50 class so my opinion isn't biased but I'm thinking of people who have 1 rank 50 and people who have multiple rank 50 classes as well. If you restrict players to being only able to equip certain actions up to a certain rank (which I'm assuming isn't rank 50) and you are forcing this class to these 2 roles in the end here are my problems.

1. 1 Rank 50 Class: Let's say this guy wants to be a specific role and chose any class because any class can do every role. Well the role he likes and the class he picked now can't work because the two specializations the class he chose doesn't contain that role.

2. Multiple Rank 50 Classes: You can compare this to FFXI having multiple Lv. 75 jobs, but I think we can do better than FFXI. Also, there is the issue of players doing this not just to have multiple classes/roles that they can play, but to use actions from other classes to enhance their play style. I understand that with your solution that this is forfeited and I respect that (since this appeals to more players than it hurts), but I think this too can be avoided with a different solution.

Now my thoughts are that FFXI had many obstacles/challenges that made grinding worth while like events for all levels such Promyvion, Missions, quests, etc. while WOW/western MMO have dungeons for party play as an alternate to solo questing grinding.

FFXI's biggest issue is creating a party (for party grinding or events) which I don't think would be an issue with a community the size of WOW and probably not with a community the size of FFXIV especially if it attracted more players.

Now if FFXI had no hardship making a party would it be a better grind or still a worse grind than other MMOs? This is of course based on opinion.

Now if FFXIV had these options for "grinding" would you still be against allowing other players to have more options for higher end class action (not huge advantage if you penalize each action individually based on class used rather than almost no penalties).

Options:
1. You can still solo mobs for the same amount of SP.
2. You can make FFXI style parties for increased SP. Perhaps x2.
3. You can do dungeon raids for SP equivalent to that of WOW.
4. You can do events for SP (greater than that percentage wise to FFXI).

I need to finish laying out the abilities on here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...kaze01/wip.png

I really like the look of this for a talent tree/merit point system.

But then you run into the PLD stigma - "but PLDs are tanks waaah waaaah" etc etc and we lose either way. lol

I really don't like the feeling of one class is the best (by far) at a role. I prefer multiple classes should be able to fill in roles, but with great differences. Right now every class can do the same exact thing with same effectiveness on every action assuming you have the same stats.
One example from FFXI for roles is this PLD/WAR vs RDM/NIN for tank that depicts how even a mage class can do this and be completely different and against something you normally wouldn't expect and that I find makes a game more fun and interesting. Here is a video from YouTube showing a RDM tanking a Wyrm to show it's possible (not sure if there is after Lv. 75 level cap or not but it's possible at least at Lv. 75 if not higher).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoVtPBPpp7k

The proposal I prefer which I believe can fix the same issues as this thread's OP by forcing roles and exclusive actions (through Titles, equivalent to specializations) as well as allowing a "sandbox" of actions to choose from for class uniqueness while allowing multiple classes to fill multiple roles as well as compliment anyone with 1 Rank 50, Multiple Rank 50s, and those w/o any Ranks 50s and w/o forcing any of the 3 to feel like they "need" to level another/all classes to be better is:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations


EDIT: Also, if you try to give 3+ specializations to every class in order to fill every/most roles then that is more work for SE (especially compared to the Title System) and makes it even harder for adding new classes/pet classes.

Here is a link to a page on where I describe FFXIV's biggest issue.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...zations/page10

[VagabondPriest]

I have been reading back a few pages to see the discussion to see if I could find an answer, and I seen DRK, PLD or any Job so be it, is just a title to change the stats around and introduce separate skills with no rank on its own except unlocking the skills am I right?

So my only remaining complaint which is my main one is why restrict the job to just 1 class? Unless you mean it takes one class to unlock it, but you can freely equip said job with any class within its Discipline with the freedom of using a spear, an axe, a sword and shield.

As I said before when I use different abilities with different classes they just don't work the same as it would with the original class so that's why I would like to equip a job to enchance what I am missing to use the ability of other jobs with better effect.

So what you are saying I can have the DRK abilities then equip some of it's abilities without having DRK job equip on LNC with a LNC class? Kinda like the same system we have on now, no?

I have been reading Ayerc about earning skills for an ability be it fighting more or paying more for an ability to be better attune to it and not worry about having said ability not working as well with a different class. I could understand that but just because somebody doesn't like the idea of a ARC/DRK doesn't mean I don't wanna try it for fun knowing I am gonna take a hit in Stats and accuracy. Main thing about DRK job I would see my self getting it other than just equiping spells around to get the same effect on any class is the improvement of Stats and improvement of usage of dark spells. Which is why I would like to equip a job on a class rather than picking its abilities for others.

Hahahah writing all this sounds like sub jobs when I know its not. Maybe I need to read more anyways I am confusing myself and probably for the best I quit on this good luck guys!!! Thanks for the answers Jericho and Ayerc