[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Kurokikaze]

Hm, it can be another grind, but a different kind of one. What that means, who knows! lolz

Either way, if it was about PLD/WAR and PLD/NIN there would be no problem (aside from the "QQ PLD is no DD durrr" talk). It's how I imagined the system could be changed to. But its hard because they'd have to redo a lot of current stuff to make Gladiator into Paladin for example. They could have just given Gladiator more uniqueness to allow for tank/DD builds but I guess they have no time to think up any ways to do that? I don't know. I guess there's some sort of desire for "THIS CLASS HAS ORANGE ARMOR, THIS CLASS HAS GREEN ARMOR, AND THIS ONE HERE IS PURPLE WITH A DRAGON: THEY R DIFFERENT" although they could have just made Gladiator red like ferra...warrior or something. Then rename the skills into "Caesar's Wrath" and "Olympos Strike" and w/e and call it a day.

Anyway, now it seems to be about PLD and a DRK that specialize from Gladiator. That's just too great of a difference between two classes in my opinion. When I level PLD, why should my DRK go up? There's just something inherently wrong here!

Could we figure out something to solve the problem?

Its inherently wrong because you're so used to seeing those classes in set roles and they've been working pretty much the same since they were introduced into the franchise. You don't have a problem with the concept but with the names.

All I'm saying is that the Gladiator can focus on being a damage dealer or a tank. Then I'm putting a name that people can relate to on top of it. Theres nothing wrong with that - people try to do it now. It could just be "GLA - Tanking Section" and "GLA Damage Section". lol

I'm taking abilities from Gladiator (and every other class) and spreading them out onto the branches. The tank ones would go under the tank section (obsess, phalanx, etc) and the damage ones go under the damage dealer branch (still precision etc). Obviously we add some more that fall in line with the mythos and give bonuses for focusing on one or the other (Tank: 5% passive damage reduction). Gladiator has some WS that can be used between both, and each section has their own unique WS or an enhancement to a current one.

Tank - While charging Rage of Halone you absorb 25% of the damage dealt to you.
Damage Dealer - Idk come up with something and get back to me.

The main point is this... The class is STILL Gladiator. I'm just giving them bonuses, skills/abilities and a new name for focusing on one thing instead of trying to be a "jack of all, master of none". You're not leveling PLD or DRK, you're leveling your GLA and deciding to use the playstyle of one or the other (and switch when you want).

As I said, its the association I made that you have an issue with.

Edit: You're right. They could have used those random names but as was said... they intend on bringing back FF classes. I wouldn't have suggested it like this if Yoshi-P wasn't already considering it. Which is why I like that we talk about changes to the game (on BG) after Yoshi-P has chimed in on what they have in mind for it. Otherwise we'd just be like most of these forums; random suggestions with a lack of direction.

[Betelgeuzah]

You don't have a problem with the concept but with the names.

Well, say, if Dark Knight behaved and acted like a Paladin but were a DD I wouldn't have a problem. But the concept itself is "dark", "evil", and the skills would definitely represent this (since they need to stand out, right?). The concept of Dark Knight and Paladin is the problem, not necessarily the names.

And why I bring this up, is not because you used it in your example- it's because that's what the dev team is planning to do. Believe me, I would love to not see Gladiator become an inferior stepping stone for the 'normal' classes- but they've got the art for armor ready and everything!

It's why I'm not sure whether we should make our discussion be based on a concept that seems to be going down the drain at the moment. Even making the game full of SCH's with a different "theme" (with abilities and spells you can't use cross-class after a certain threshold, of course) and expanding on that with armor and skills that represent the theme would have sufficed.

But now it seems BLM is coming, DRK is coming and PLD is coming... and most likely will be used as specializations of the existing classes. So now we need to figure out a solution to the problem of DRK and PLD coming from the same class and which level up simultaneously.. but how?

EDIT: Well it's not us that needs to figure this shit out lol but we can nudge the developers towards something potentially good instead of the *grind 'till your ears fall off*-solution aye?

[Kurokikaze]

Well, say, if Dark Knight behaved and acted like a Paladin but were a DD I wouldn't have a problem. But the concept itself is "dark", "evil", and the skills would definitely represent this (since they need to stand out, right?). The concept of Dark Knight and Paladin is the problem, not necessarily the names.

And why I bring this up, is not because you used it in your example- it's because that's what the dev team is planning to do. Believe me, I would love to not see Gladiator become an inferior stepping stone for the 'normal' classes- but they've got the art for armor ready and everything!

It's why I'm not sure whether we should make our discussion be based on a concept that seems to be going down the drain at the moment. Even making the game full of SCH's with a different "theme" (with abilities and spells you can't use cross-class after a certain threshold, of course) and expanding on that with armor and skills that represent the theme would have sufficed.

But now it seems BLM is coming, DRK is coming and PLD is coming... and most likely will be used as specializations of the existing classes. So now we need to figure out a solution to the problem of DRK and PLD coming from the same class and which level up simultaneously.. but how?

EDIT: Well it's not us that needs to figure this shit out lol but we can nudge the developers towards something potentially good instead of the *grind 'till your ears fall off*-solution aye?

Yeah the armor is coming and yes it can only be worn when you fall into one of the specializations. Because the armor is coming does not throw away the concept. Also, I planned for it in the OP with Artifact Armor quests.

As for DRK and PLD coming from the same class... Thats a lore issue and I leave it in SE's capable hands to come up with some interesting stories to not only introduce them but blend them in with what we have now in a way that makes sense. There will be quests from current guilds that through out the grind explain the paths taken and their meaning in Eorzea. The same goes for every specialization.

Shitty example I gave a few pages after the OP:

Dark Knight:
"A few Gladiators have come up with a way to infuse the dark arts of conjurers/thaumaturge within a sword. The sword is said to drain the very life of their opponents in the colosseum. They started calling themselves Dark Knights - bunch of morons if you ask me. They're probably training near the THM guild now..."

Paladin:
"You don't seem to fight in the colosseum unless provoked... you wanna be some kind of knight in shiny armor? You've got a lot to learn kid..."

Yes I know I suck, thats why I said I leave it to SE to do what you seem to have an issue with. Lore/story.

I have this really crazy image in my head of what I thought this game was going to be or could've been.

[Chinook]

So now we need to figure out a solution to the problem of DRK and PLD coming from the same class and which level up simultaneously.. but how?

I don't think Dark Knight and Paladin has to be in same class, DRK could be from Marauder and Warrior from Gladiator. I think these were juust examples anyway.

[Betelgeuzah]

Yes I know I suck, thats why I said I leave it to SE to do what you seem to have an issue with. Lore/story.

So are you saying that they will call the dark knights and paladins and keep the uninspiring skills from before that aren't even related to anything "dark knightish" or "paladinish"? Yet they run around in dark armor of evilness? How do you justify that this knight in a shiny armor is becoming stronger as the "master of dark arts" at the same time?

Or should the lore be described as such: "I take the path of the dark knight... because I like the color black and found this evil armor from my closet the other day LOL."

I'm not exactly sure how you would approach this to solve it. It's not just about the lore, it's about what they represent. They will piss of a lot of people if they introduce THE DARK KNIGHT and it has nothing dark knightish about it except the damn armor. Just keep it as Gladiator in that case.

I don't think Dark Knight and Paladin has to be in same class, DRK could be from Marauder and Warrior from Gladiator. I think these were juust examples anyway.

True that. BLM and WHM is going to be an issue though.

The only way I could see this working if they introduce the classes like this: Gladiator+Paladin "specs", Marauder+Dark Knight "specs", Pugilist+Thief/Monk "specs", Lancer+Dragoon "specs", Archer+Musketeer/Corsair(?) "specs"... but the mage classes are problematic.

[Kurokikaze]

True that. BLM and WHM is going to be an issue though.

The only way I could see this working if they introduce the classes like this: Gladiator+Paladin "specs", Marauder+Dark Knight "specs", Pugilist+Thief/Monk "specs", Lancer+Dragoon "specs", Archer+Musketeer/Corsair(?) "specs"... but the mage classes are problematic.

Thats for SE to decide. This is just a groundwork comprised mostly of very easy to understand examples.

[Kurokikaze]

Did you read my post before? I said they obviously have to introduce abilities that fall in line with what we know those classes will do. Of course somewhere into that tree/board/sphere whatever they decide to do there will be "Souleater" and other shit that is synonymous with DRK. Put it really deep in so that people will only have enough points for it near 35+. There are so many abilities that they need to add regardless, just because the ones we have are way too generic and have nothing to do with FF classes.

Thats not even a question of if. They have to do that.

I justify it by saying that its the same class in the end and they are deciding what to focus on.

And yeah what Chinook said. Those were just examples.

[Betelgeuzah]

Yeah well, isn't everything eh? How far do you think we should go? They may like the 'grind your asses off' option as that means more replayability. I like the above more but maybe they wouldn't have thought of that before if we didn't mention it here.

Who knows!

I think two specs per class would be enough (the current + the classic). They'll probably implement more as well.

[Kurokikaze]

I need to finish laying out the abilities on here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...kaze01/wip.png

So that we can be on the same page. I've just been too busy lately. lol

DRK and PLD stuff that you know they would have from playing other FF games is found deeper into the board. Fill it up with your imagination. At the tip of DRK drop in the bread and butter: Blood Weapon.

It's possible Hyan.

[Betelgeuzah]

Nobody would think of them as the same class lol. I think that's the problem.

"Srs guys, it's not fatigue! It's bonus exp!"

With the existing class + classic class spec combo it's not so hard. imo. Maybe the current classes would have a harder time selling to the audience though when they have paladins and dragoons against them? Fuck.