[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Cairdeas]

I thought you were for this proposal?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

I simply pinned both proposals together stating that I think the Title System is better and that if Kuro's proposal can be better then it needs to be addressed.

I wasn't replying to you Omega :P

[Meenkieblade]

Found this on another page and thought it'd be a good read for some out there;


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Zantetsuken
(neat idea person!)



In going over the issues with the class distinctions as they currently are, I began to look back at older Final Fantasy games and how they addressed the job/class system in a fun and enjoyable way. I remember that one of my favorites was the system in Final Fantasy Tactics, mainly the War of the Lions. The system was exciting and engaging because it provided the player with constant goals to pursue in unlocking and developing new classes.

The real key with the Final Fantasy Tactics job growth system is the fact that each job had a set of prerequisites that you needed to fulfill before you could open it up (with the exception of the squire and chemist)

I think this system would be a fantastic fit for FFXIV, and it would require a few changes to the current system, largely in the reassignment of abilities in order to maximize the uniqueness of the classes

So to start with, lets take a look at the Disciples of War:

Disciples of War:

* Spear/Lance - Dragoon (Lancer)
* Great Axe - Warrior (Marauder)
* 1h Sword and Shield - Soldier (Gladiator)
* Bow - Archer
* Hand to Hand - Monk (Pugilist)
* Dagger - Thief


First off, I would suggest some name changes and tweaks to really make each job unique. Part of this would be removing or severely limiting the healing abilities from many of these jobs and give them a tight focus on their core roles. One of the major problems with the current system is that every class can do pretty much everything, while this is nice for solo play, it makes group play very simple and dull.

The Soldier needs to be a tank and a damned good one. His raw melee ability should be average at best, but he needs to survive like no other. Soldiers need have abilities which allow him to shrug off damage for short bursts of time (5-10 sec) as well as the ability to provoke multiple enemies in a radius or cone and TP attacks that generate hate as well.

The Dragoon should specialize in hard hitting jump attacks and multi-hit skewering abilities, Additionally, Dragoon changes should also build on the current 'lancet' style attacks (like Speed Surge) that leach small amounts of TP, HP, MP etc.. from mobs and share it with the party.

Archers should have skills that focus on crowd control. Their skills should allow group binding, and concentrated volleys for picking off specific targets like spell casters and other ranged attackers.

Monks should be single-target damage dealers with evasive tanking abilities and stunning moves. The endgame spiritual attacks of the Monk should be able to penetrate very high armor and do consistent amounts of damage.

Warriors should change modes while attacking.. switch between weaker AOE attacks that destroy crowds of mobs, or stronger hits that have disabling side-effects which cripple TP, Armor, Strength or Magic Power. The Warrior needs to get stronger as he takes damage.

Thief would be the new class. With rapid-striking blade attacks, this class would specialize in melee DoT skills like 'bleed'. A thief should also have detection skills that reveal and exploit weaknesses in mobs, dealing extra damage to those that are inflicted with enfeebling effects (see current victimize skill for Pugalist)

Disciples of Magic:

* Elemental Magic (Elemental Wands) - Black Mage
* Enhancing/Restoring Magic (Radicals)- Conjurer
* Enfeebling/Draining Magic (Jeweled Wand)- Arcanist (Thaumaturge)
* Healing/Curing Magic (Crook)- White Mage
* Musician (Flute)- Bard

The Disciples of Magic roster is pretty weak as it is. I would break both the Conjurer and Thaumaturge into four separate classes and then I would add a fifth, the Bard.

First is the Black Mage. yep the classic FF job we all know and love. From Blizzard to Thundaja VI, and access elemental weakening spells like Shock, Rasp and Drown, this class should be the most damaging and fragile class in the game.

The Conjurer (or Green Mage in FFXII) fulfills the roll of the buffer. Whether he is casting defensive spells like enThunder, Ice Spikes, barBlizzard, Stoneskin, Faith, Blink, Protect, Shell and Bravery, or DoT spells like Poison, Toxify, Bio and Virus This guy is helping the rest of the group win the attrition war. One of the best jobs to party with, and one of the hardest to solo with.

The Arcanist (also from FFXII) is an Enfeebler specializing in Umbral magic. With Drain, Aspir, Sleep, Bind, Paralyze, Silence, Sap, Blind, Gravity, Confuse, and Absorb as well as incremental magic such as Scourge, he can keep the enemy in a weakened state while the group focuses on the kill. Sacrifice allows him to do some limited healing as well.

The role of the White Mage is curing, healing and restoring. Abilities include not only healing spells like Cure, Regen, Blind-na, Refresh, Erase, and Raise, but also offensive Astral Magic like Dia, Banish and Holy.

The Bard is the new Class. Bards are the jack of all trades, and the master of crowd-control. The job of a bard is to encourage and empower the group while weakening, damaging or sleeping monsters with their songs. This class should play almost exactly like its role in FFXI.

Disciples of the Hand:

* Alchemy - Alchemist
* Leatherworking - Tanner
* Clothcrafting - Weaver
* Metalworking - Blacksmith
* Cooking - Culinarian
* Jeweler - Goldsmith
* Woodworking - Carpenter


I find the crafting jobs to be fantastic as they are now. Perhaps the process of crafting itself could be slightly tweaked, but I think this is the bright spot in FFXIV.

Disciples of the Land:

* Fishing - Fisher
* Harvesting - Botanist
* Mining - Miner
* Husbandry - Shepherd


The addition of the Shepherd Class would be quite nice. The chocobo raising in FFXI was quite fun and if that concept is built upon further it would make a great addition to the Disciples of the Land.

So after all those changes, what next? Well, those changes above allow for Advanced Classes in the style of Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions. You raise specific beginner classes to a certain level to unlock advanced classes. For instance, if you wanted to unlock the Sage Class, you might need Black Mage at level 50 with Conjurer and Arcanist both at level 30. Below are some possibilities for advanced Classes using the changes above:

* [Soldier + White Mage + Black Mage] = Red Mage (Rapier & Shield)
* [Alchemist + Archer] = Musketeer (Guns & Grenades)
* [Archer + Thief] = Sniper (Crossbow)
* [Warrior + Soldier] = Berzerker (Double 1H Axes)
* [Warrior + Arcanist] = Dark Knight (Battle Scythe or Short Spear)
* [Soldier + White Mage] = Paladin (Long Sword and Shield or Greatsword)
* [Thief + Monk] = Ninja (Katana & Darts)
* [Dragoon + Archer] = Samurai (Great Katana)
* [Musketeer + Thief] = Gambler (Cards & Dice)
* [Thief + Bard] = Dancer (Twin Knives)
* [White Mage + Conjurer + Monk] = Devout (Crosier)
* [Black Mage + Arcanist + Conjurer] = Sage (Spell Book)
* [Shepherd + Bard + Berserker] = Beastmaster (Whip)
* [Arcanist + Beastmaster] = Blue Mage (Tulwar)
* [Arcanist + Conjurer] = Time Mage (Chime Staff)
* [Black Mage + Botanist + Miner] = Geomancer (Bell)
* [Sage + Devout + Time Mage + Geomancer] = Summoner (Evoking Staff)


I welcome all thoughts on this. If you have any comments, please leave them below. I really hope the FFXIV development team consider some of these ideas, and I believe they would give the game opportunity for long-term growth as well as considerable enjoyment for the players.

NOTE_01: Keep in mind that the above advancement prerequisites are just possibilities given changes to the current system. Please do not become too fixated on whether X or Y class should be required to obtain Z advanced Class. It is merely a suggestion of what could be done with the system.

NOTE_02: This suggested change to the system is intended to retain the core premise of the Armory system. That is, a class is determined by the weapon it wields. The FFXIV development team has no plans to change this concept, therefore the system I propose is intended to supplement that vision for the game.

NOTE_03: The current assignment of skills and abilities allows for too much customization, which leads to builds being far to similar. To counter this, skills outside the current class should carry a higher cost in addition to reduced effectiveness. However, advanced classes could grant reduced costs for assigning skills from classes that served as prerequisites.
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This is from a forum topic he started here, it's just a bit hidden.
(Hope you don't mind me reposting it...but it's a great idea imo!)

~Meenk

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

How did Thaumaturge sudden turn into Arcanist when they are two separate magic classes? The problem that I see with this and turning dagger into Thief is there is already a great deal or lore implemented in the world revolving around Arcanist. More so that than the thieves. Which don't exist what so ever. So that will be a great deal of planning.

[Kurokikaze]

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

This right here is proof that you have not read the OP. Please just leave.

To the posts above. Keep it out of my thread.

[OmegaNovaios]

Zan's proposal is essentially Kuro's proposal w/o a talent tree, but instead of specializing in 1 advanced class instead having the option to go into 2. It also touches on the Title Proposal of having greater penalties for cross class actions. It also introduces exclusives for these advanced classes and forces roles effectively, but ultimately it GREATLY reduces the amount of customization you can incorporate in you character instead of adding to customization which not only does Kuro's idea implement, but so does the Title System even more so. I believe Zan's proposal is the weakest of all 3.

All 3 proposal's define roles, create exclusives, limit actions in a specific way. The main differences is the customization and how things are limited and I believe the Title System is more effective in both.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

[Kurokikaze]

Now the BIG POINT I got form this new OP that Kuro didn't include is to reduce the effect of skills (correct me if I'm wrong I haven't read every post there are too many pages). Which can be done for either idea. The example given in the Title Setup was to restrict Cure (from CON) at 100% as WHM, 75% as PLD, and 50% on any other Title. This fixes my previous problem (I think) of Curing (Lv. 20 restriction would be Cure II) from being used on every single class, or at least not as effectively perhaps even outweighing the use of it at Rank 50. Now what wouldn't change and would even make worse if implemented if DPS skills. Rank 35-50 DPS skills would by far outweigh any 1-20 Rank DPS skills and adding a penalty to this of let's say -50% there wouldn't even be a chance of using this so I think the rank restriction is flawed in this sense. Yet this does make a lot of actions exclusive. The only thing I can propose here is to have two classes to pull any action from in order to fix this and maybe even specializing in 1 advancement class for each class through a talent tree.

Of course I didn't mention that. Thats a given and doesn't need to be pointed out. No way around it.

[OmegaNovaios]

Of course I didn't mention that. Thats a given and doesn't need to be pointed out. No way around it.

But I believe the Title System can get around this.

[Kurokikaze]

No they can't. There are cross-class limitations now, they're just really weak. There is NO getting around it. In order to go forward from here they need to nerf cross-class usage more.

[OmegaNovaios]

No they can't. There are cross-class limitations now, they're just really weak. There is NO getting around it. In order to go forward from here they need to nerf cross-class usage more.

I will gladly step down from my position if you can give a logical explanation detailing the flaws in the way the setup of Title System combined with the heavy penalties to cross class actions that vary greatly from each class. I'm not trying to bash your proposal and I commend your thoughts and ideas, but I am simply trying to find the absolute best path for FFXIV. If it can become better why not allow it.

[Joe_Cool]

I've seen 3 pretty good ideas concerning the Job/Class system and I would like to make a suggestion. Instead of being at war with each other about which is best, why not combine certain aspects of all 3?

The Job/Class system could start to be like Zantetsuken's overall idea to a certain extent. FFXIV should change the spells/abilities around on the jobs so that they aren't mixed around so much. (Example: Make CON have BLM spells and THM have WHM spells). Then change the names of the classes to match previous FF titles and the ability to unlock advanced classes by ranking up a variety of other classes. I also like Zante's idea of DoH jobs having an effect on unlocking certain DoW or DoM classes.

The ability to change your class by simply changing weapons still stays. Along with being able to mix/match the abilties/spells you learn from the different classes on to the class you're currently playing as. But....it has limitations based upon Carpe's Two Tier job/class idea. Something I'd like to add is there would also be a rank/level restriction on setting spells. Meaning you can't equip Cure 3 on a rank/level 1 class. Optimal rank thats currently in the game could be the minimum level you have to be to use/equip it.

Now combine Carpe's Title/Weapon system with Kuro's Talent Tree system but instead of making Kuro's "Talent Tree" branch off, like when he gave an example of a Gladiator branching off into being a Paladin or Dark Knight where you choose abilties, etc. from the grid you choose to branch off too....don't have it branch off at all. Each player could have "Job Ability Points" that he/she acquires per Carpe's Job/Class system idea. There could be several different grids, kind of like http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.c...ighttalent.jpg , where the player chooses which abilties and such he wants to unlock based upon how he wants to play his class. Not going to be able to max out all grids but could reallocate points if you changed your mind and wanted to play that favorite job of yours a different way. EDIT: Actually, maybe it would be best to be able to max out each grid but by putting a good amount of time in acquiring "Job Points". The Grids could be called "Bow Ranger", "Gun Ranger", "Crossbow Ranger"etc. for 1 class and "Sword Dragoon", "Lance Dragoon", "Spear Dragoon" for the other. Examples of what Carpe mentioned and I added 1 to each.

I probably didn't do a very good of trying to explain where I'm coming from and to fully understand one would probably have to do a lot of reading from Kuro's, Carpe's, and Zantetsuken's job/class system.

I call it the Joe's-Zante's-Kuro's-Carpe's Job/Class System! lol