[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[OmegaNovaios]

So I just had this thought:

With this OP's setup essentially this is like FFXI w/o a sub job, w/ merits, and in place of a sub job every class has the option of 2 (maybe more) exclusive main jobs (which is essentially restricting every class to choosing between 2 exclusive sub jobs). As for the restricting everything to rank 20 actions or less this essentially makes any DPS actions pointless at Rank 50 by the the high rank DPS actions and making only curing/buffs useful which everyone would still have the same curing/buffing going on.

Please clarify if I'm wrong or if there is a fix to this.

Now I'm heavily leaning to this thread's OP.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

Now the difference here is that instead of putting a cap on actions from other classes there is still a sandbox like now, but essentially giving everyone a role thus creating uniqueness just like this idea does. Another difference is that instead of essentially having only 2 "sub jobs" to choose from you have any sub job to choose from. This forces roles in the same way (it gives you new EXCLUSIVE actions/traits/whatever), but the key effect here is you have more overall options.

Now the BIG POINT I got form this new OP that Kuro didn't include is to reduce the effect of skills (correct me if I'm wrong I haven't read every post there are too many pages). Which can be done for either idea. The example given in the Title Setup was to restrict Cure (from CON) at 100% as WHM, 75% as PLD, and 50% on any other Title. This fixes my previous problem (I think) of Curing (Lv. 20 restriction would be Cure II) from being used on every single class, or at least not as effectively perhaps even outweighing the use of it at Rank 50. Now what wouldn't change and would even make worse if implemented if DPS skills. Rank 35-50 DPS skills would by far outweigh any 1-20 Rank DPS skills and adding a penalty to this of let's say -50% there wouldn't even be a chance of using this so I think the rank restriction is flawed in this sense. Yet this does make a lot of actions exclusive. The only thing I can propose here is to have two classes to pull any action from in order to fix this and maybe even specializing in 1 advancement class for each class through a talent tree.

So with the Title System you can still equip every skill and it gives much more than 2 advancements to go into, it gives all advancements to go into which you can only choose 1. Now the Title System didn't mention a talent tree, but it could be added to it.

The key restriction to the Title System is heavily restricting every action individually based on your title/class which allows up to all rank 50 actions to be effectively "sandboxed" IMO. This can be implemented on either idea, but I prefer Title System here since you would get many more options from any title as opposed to very limited specializations (so I'd advise Rank 20 restrictions with 2 classes for a real proposal).

If you agree with my thoughts then we should decide whether Titles + Class or 2 Classes + rank 20 restrictions (w/ or w/o talent trees for either) is the better option.
If not please make a counter argument.

[Cairdeas]

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

[OmegaNovaios]

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

I thought you were for this proposal?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

I simply pinned both proposals together stating that I think the Title System is better and that if Kuro's proposal can be better then it needs to be addressed.

[Cairdeas]

I thought you were for this proposal?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

I simply pinned both proposals together stating that I think the Title System is better and that if Kuro's proposal can be better then it needs to be addressed.

I wasn't replying to you Omega :P

[Kurokikaze]

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

This right here is proof that you have not read the OP. Please just leave.

To the posts above. Keep it out of my thread.

[northernsky]

This right here is proof that you have not read the OP. Please just leave.

To the posts above. Keep it out of my thread.

Seriously...

You bring a good idea, some have brought others, what's the problem in comparing them one aside the other?

[Shazaam]

Seriously...

You bring a good idea, some have brought others, what's the problem in comparing them one aside the other?

From this post:

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

There is no problem in comparison, but what was said was that this 'Specialization' idea was mashing WoW on top of FFXIV, and that isn't the case. Hence why he asked the poster to leave.

Probably a bit abrupt and even rude, but given how much Kuro has responded to the exact same remark from previous posters and his involvement with the debate on this thread, it is hard to fault him for snapping a bit at a post that seemingly ignored 45+ pages of previous posts.

Comparison is fine, but trying to boil down any of these suggestions into : "that's just wow" is a little trite in itself, and not really a participation in discussion or feedback.

The OP itself shows that talent trees are just being used as a 'placeholder' for whatever GUI would be implemented.

Personally, I don't want to see a WoW talent tree pop up in my FFXIV... I would quit the game right there. But if they took the exact same progression, bonuses, and abilities, and popped into a GUI that looked like a Sphere Grid, I would be hooked.

That was a point made in the OP. That the GUI is up for debate, but seeing as the many players are familiar with the 'talent tree' in MMOs it makes a better placeholder for whatever original GUI SE chooses to use.

The second point being, that within this system you can STILL level all classes, and switch between them whenever you like. You are only restricted to whatever Advanced class you choose at the time, and this class can be switched in town or via quest at your choosing. It is clearly stated in the OP.

The OP system is nothing like WoW, you don't make alts, you continue your adventures on one character, growing with each experience and class change. If anything it is more like FFXI's system than the one we currently have in FFXIV.

TLDR: Kuro had pretty good reason for saying that this post ignored the OP and the past 45 pages, even if he was a bit rude about it. The poster either needs to read the OP and respond with insight, or suffer being potentially ignored by the rest of the debate.

[Seikninkuru]

There is no problem in comparison, but what was said was that this 'Specialization' idea was mashing WoW on top of FFXIV, and that isn't the case. Hence why he asked the poster to leave.

Probably a bit abrupt and even rude, but given how much Kuro has responded to the exact same remark from previous posters and his involvement with the debate on this thread, it is hard to fault him for snapping a bit at a post that seemingly ignored 45+ pages of previous posts.

Comparison is fine, but trying to boil down any of these suggestions into : "that's just wow" is a little trite in itself, and not really a participation in discussion or feedback.

The OP itself shows that talent trees are just being used as a 'placeholder' for whatever GUI would be implemented.

Personally, I don't want to see a WoW talent tree pop up in my FFXIV... I would quit the game right there. But if they took the exact same progression, bonuses, and abilities, and popped into a GUI that looked like a Sphere Grid, I would be hooked.

That was a point made in the OP. That the GUI is up for debate, but seeing as the many players are familiar with the 'talent tree' in MMOs it makes a better placeholder for whatever original GUI SE chooses to use.

The second point being, that within this system you can STILL level all classes, and switch between them whenever you like. You are only restricted to whatever Advanced class you choose at the time, and this class can be switched in town or via quest at your choosing. It is clearly stated in the OP.

The OP system is nothing like WoW, you don't make alts, you continue your adventures on one character, growing with each experience and class change. If anything it is more like FFXI's system than the one we currently have in FFXIV.

TLDR: Kuro had pretty good reason for saying that this post ignored the OP and the past 45 pages, even if he was a bit rude about it. The poster either needs to read the OP and respond with insight, or suffer being potentially ignored by the rest of the debate.

Still curious why we need class names to define playstyle, when you explain that in a form other than that FFXi or FF (insert number here) did so, we can talk. Thanks.


-Have fun!

[northernsky]

From this post:



There is no problem in comparison, but what was said was that this 'Specialization' idea was mashing WoW on top of FFXIV, and that isn't the case. Hence why he asked the poster to leave.

Probably a bit abrupt and even rude, but given how much Kuro has responded to the exact same remark from previous posters and his involvement with the debate on this thread, it is hard to fault him for snapping a bit at a post that seemingly ignored 45+ pages of previous posts.

Comparison is fine, but trying to boil down any of these suggestions into : "that's just wow" is a little trite in itself, and not really a participation in discussion or feedback.

The OP itself shows that talent trees are just being used as a 'placeholder' for whatever GUI would be implemented.

Personally, I don't want to see a WoW talent tree pop up in my FFXIV... I would quit the game right there. But if they took the exact same progression, bonuses, and abilities, and popped into a GUI that looked like a Sphere Grid, I would be hooked.

That was a point made in the OP. That the GUI is up for debate, but seeing as the many players are familiar with the 'talent tree' in MMOs it makes a better placeholder for whatever original GUI SE chooses to use.

The second point being, that within this system you can STILL level all classes, and switch between them whenever you like. You are only restricted to whatever Advanced class you choose at the time, and this class can be switched in town or via quest at your choosing. It is clearly stated in the OP.

The OP system is nothing like WoW, you don't make alts, you continue your adventures on one character, growing with each experience and class change. If anything it is more like FFXI's system than the one we currently have in FFXIV.

TLDR: Kuro had pretty good reason for saying that this post ignored the OP and the past 45 pages, even if he was a bit rude about it. The poster either needs to read the OP and respond with insight, or suffer being potentially ignored by the rest of the debate.

I hear you. My point was more about "to the others posts, this does not belong in my thread", the others' posts being comparisons with other suggestions (and the notion of owning a thread is silly in istself...)

Anyway I know I started it but no point in further arguing about this. I like the OP's proposition a lot, like some others' propositions too. And I find that most of times they are not exclusive, i-e they can be meshed together. So comparing several ideas one with the other is a good thing, if it's done right of course.

[Meenkieblade]

Found this on another page and thought it'd be a good read for some out there;


===============================================
Zantetsuken
(neat idea person!)



In going over the issues with the class distinctions as they currently are, I began to look back at older Final Fantasy games and how they addressed the job/class system in a fun and enjoyable way. I remember that one of my favorites was the system in Final Fantasy Tactics, mainly the War of the Lions. The system was exciting and engaging because it provided the player with constant goals to pursue in unlocking and developing new classes.

The real key with the Final Fantasy Tactics job growth system is the fact that each job had a set of prerequisites that you needed to fulfill before you could open it up (with the exception of the squire and chemist)

I think this system would be a fantastic fit for FFXIV, and it would require a few changes to the current system, largely in the reassignment of abilities in order to maximize the uniqueness of the classes

So to start with, lets take a look at the Disciples of War:

Disciples of War:

* Spear/Lance - Dragoon (Lancer)
* Great Axe - Warrior (Marauder)
* 1h Sword and Shield - Soldier (Gladiator)
* Bow - Archer
* Hand to Hand - Monk (Pugilist)
* Dagger - Thief


First off, I would suggest some name changes and tweaks to really make each job unique. Part of this would be removing or severely limiting the healing abilities from many of these jobs and give them a tight focus on their core roles. One of the major problems with the current system is that every class can do pretty much everything, while this is nice for solo play, it makes group play very simple and dull.

The Soldier needs to be a tank and a damned good one. His raw melee ability should be average at best, but he needs to survive like no other. Soldiers need have abilities which allow him to shrug off damage for short bursts of time (5-10 sec) as well as the ability to provoke multiple enemies in a radius or cone and TP attacks that generate hate as well.

The Dragoon should specialize in hard hitting jump attacks and multi-hit skewering abilities, Additionally, Dragoon changes should also build on the current 'lancet' style attacks (like Speed Surge) that leach small amounts of TP, HP, MP etc.. from mobs and share it with the party.

Archers should have skills that focus on crowd control. Their skills should allow group binding, and concentrated volleys for picking off specific targets like spell casters and other ranged attackers.

Monks should be single-target damage dealers with evasive tanking abilities and stunning moves. The endgame spiritual attacks of the Monk should be able to penetrate very high armor and do consistent amounts of damage.

Warriors should change modes while attacking.. switch between weaker AOE attacks that destroy crowds of mobs, or stronger hits that have disabling side-effects which cripple TP, Armor, Strength or Magic Power. The Warrior needs to get stronger as he takes damage.

Thief would be the new class. With rapid-striking blade attacks, this class would specialize in melee DoT skills like 'bleed'. A thief should also have detection skills that reveal and exploit weaknesses in mobs, dealing extra damage to those that are inflicted with enfeebling effects (see current victimize skill for Pugalist)

Disciples of Magic:

* Elemental Magic (Elemental Wands) - Black Mage
* Enhancing/Restoring Magic (Radicals)- Conjurer
* Enfeebling/Draining Magic (Jeweled Wand)- Arcanist (Thaumaturge)
* Healing/Curing Magic (Crook)- White Mage
* Musician (Flute)- Bard

The Disciples of Magic roster is pretty weak as it is. I would break both the Conjurer and Thaumaturge into four separate classes and then I would add a fifth, the Bard.

First is the Black Mage. yep the classic FF job we all know and love. From Blizzard to Thundaja VI, and access elemental weakening spells like Shock, Rasp and Drown, this class should be the most damaging and fragile class in the game.

The Conjurer (or Green Mage in FFXII) fulfills the roll of the buffer. Whether he is casting defensive spells like enThunder, Ice Spikes, barBlizzard, Stoneskin, Faith, Blink, Protect, Shell and Bravery, or DoT spells like Poison, Toxify, Bio and Virus This guy is helping the rest of the group win the attrition war. One of the best jobs to party with, and one of the hardest to solo with.

The Arcanist (also from FFXII) is an Enfeebler specializing in Umbral magic. With Drain, Aspir, Sleep, Bind, Paralyze, Silence, Sap, Blind, Gravity, Confuse, and Absorb as well as incremental magic such as Scourge, he can keep the enemy in a weakened state while the group focuses on the kill. Sacrifice allows him to do some limited healing as well.

The role of the White Mage is curing, healing and restoring. Abilities include not only healing spells like Cure, Regen, Blind-na, Refresh, Erase, and Raise, but also offensive Astral Magic like Dia, Banish and Holy.

The Bard is the new Class. Bards are the jack of all trades, and the master of crowd-control. The job of a bard is to encourage and empower the group while weakening, damaging or sleeping monsters with their songs. This class should play almost exactly like its role in FFXI.

Disciples of the Hand:

* Alchemy - Alchemist
* Leatherworking - Tanner
* Clothcrafting - Weaver
* Metalworking - Blacksmith
* Cooking - Culinarian
* Jeweler - Goldsmith
* Woodworking - Carpenter


I find the crafting jobs to be fantastic as they are now. Perhaps the process of crafting itself could be slightly tweaked, but I think this is the bright spot in FFXIV.

Disciples of the Land:

* Fishing - Fisher
* Harvesting - Botanist
* Mining - Miner
* Husbandry - Shepherd


The addition of the Shepherd Class would be quite nice. The chocobo raising in FFXI was quite fun and if that concept is built upon further it would make a great addition to the Disciples of the Land.

So after all those changes, what next? Well, those changes above allow for Advanced Classes in the style of Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions. You raise specific beginner classes to a certain level to unlock advanced classes. For instance, if you wanted to unlock the Sage Class, you might need Black Mage at level 50 with Conjurer and Arcanist both at level 30. Below are some possibilities for advanced Classes using the changes above:

* [Soldier + White Mage + Black Mage] = Red Mage (Rapier & Shield)
* [Alchemist + Archer] = Musketeer (Guns & Grenades)
* [Archer + Thief] = Sniper (Crossbow)
* [Warrior + Soldier] = Berzerker (Double 1H Axes)
* [Warrior + Arcanist] = Dark Knight (Battle Scythe or Short Spear)
* [Soldier + White Mage] = Paladin (Long Sword and Shield or Greatsword)
* [Thief + Monk] = Ninja (Katana & Darts)
* [Dragoon + Archer] = Samurai (Great Katana)
* [Musketeer + Thief] = Gambler (Cards & Dice)
* [Thief + Bard] = Dancer (Twin Knives)
* [White Mage + Conjurer + Monk] = Devout (Crosier)
* [Black Mage + Arcanist + Conjurer] = Sage (Spell Book)
* [Shepherd + Bard + Berserker] = Beastmaster (Whip)
* [Arcanist + Beastmaster] = Blue Mage (Tulwar)
* [Arcanist + Conjurer] = Time Mage (Chime Staff)
* [Black Mage + Botanist + Miner] = Geomancer (Bell)
* [Sage + Devout + Time Mage + Geomancer] = Summoner (Evoking Staff)


I welcome all thoughts on this. If you have any comments, please leave them below. I really hope the FFXIV development team consider some of these ideas, and I believe they would give the game opportunity for long-term growth as well as considerable enjoyment for the players.

NOTE_01: Keep in mind that the above advancement prerequisites are just possibilities given changes to the current system. Please do not become too fixated on whether X or Y class should be required to obtain Z advanced Class. It is merely a suggestion of what could be done with the system.

NOTE_02: This suggested change to the system is intended to retain the core premise of the Armory system. That is, a class is determined by the weapon it wields. The FFXIV development team has no plans to change this concept, therefore the system I propose is intended to supplement that vision for the game.

NOTE_03: The current assignment of skills and abilities allows for too much customization, which leads to builds being far to similar. To counter this, skills outside the current class should carry a higher cost in addition to reduced effectiveness. However, advanced classes could grant reduced costs for assigning skills from classes that served as prerequisites.
===========================================================

This is from a forum topic he started here, it's just a bit hidden.
(Hope you don't mind me reposting it...but it's a great idea imo!)

~Meenk