[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Kurokikaze]

You know I was just wondering how does this effect DoL and DoH? We need consider all disciplines with these idea instead of just focusing on the fighters.

Meh I don't care enough to try to make a system that works with them. I'd like to keep battle classes and crafting classes separate. SE set pretty lofty goals when they set out to make crafting classes "full time classes"; they can fix that mess themselves.

[Anathiel]

So...solracts idea of combining the three main ideas floating around...nobody feeling that anymore?

[Rynricy]

Great suggestion

[Carpe]

Another thing this could also work with DOH too you could get a title like Weapon Artisan or something that would give you some extra bonuses when forging weapons...just an idea.

[Kurokikaze]

The problem that I have with FFT type unlocks is that it might be deemed as too grindy for casual players. Why should people have to level all these sub jobs before unlocking a class they actually want to play? Getting level 15-20 on multiple classes may not be that hard for people on the boards but for the people that they need to attract to keep this game alive in the future - it might be a bit much.

Also, please explain to me how #4 which you got out of that message isn't accomplished by this proposal?

CLOSING

SE will have successfully addressed these issues and many more that plague the Armory System by introducing this into the game. This is an extension of the Armory System, rebalancing of abilities, and a culmination of other fixes to Final Fantasy XIV under the guise of the Dev Issue 1033: Class Name Changes.

Is in my OP. What you stated is just an alternate method of implementation pretty much, which is fine, but you didn't say how this idea doesn't fall under #4.

4. Compliment the existing armory with a new "Advanced Job" sytem that creates traditional FF classes.

I really want to hear your thoughts. The fact that its used in other MMOs is not a valid argument. I called them "talent trees" because they are easily understandable to players that play MMOs. I'm really just referring to it as a concept which is something we have now with the Action Points Menu... only thing is that I'm adding more abilities, traits and a GUI to it.

I don't think you have a problem with the idea but more a problem with change and the fact that I called it talent trees. Maybe I should have called it a License Board or Sphere Grid to throw people off...

[kisada]

I don't think you have a problem with the idea but more a problem with change and the fact that I called it talent trees. Maybe I should have called it a License Board or Sphere Grid to throw people off...

might wanna sneak the comparison into your "solution" section to help ease comprehension for those in need.

[Kurokikaze]

This:

http://i52.tinypic.com/vymlpe.jpg

is the same as this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...kaze01/wip.png

is the same as this:

http://www.ffnemesis.com/ff10/images/sphere_grid.jpg

is the same as this:

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...ense_Board.JPG

is the same as this:

http://www.theicecave.org/damage_con...Crystarium.jpg

is the same as this:

http://images.mmosite.com/feature/ne...wow/wow_02.jpg

Do you get the point? "It's in every MMO" is not a valid argument because its actually in almost every modern game with RPG elements - all that changed was the look.

[Loony_BoB]

What about this?

http://www.aiyon.com/keke/ffxivjobs.png

>_>;

[Kurokikaze]

That is FFXI and FFT mixed together. No there doesn't seem to be any sort of talent tree there... but unfortunately I fail to see how that fixes any of the problems with our current classes and just adds a crap-ton more to the mix that will need to be rebalanced along with the ones we have. New rug on a dirty floor.

Maybe you can explain it for me?

Yeah Kisada, I think I will take that last post.

[Carpe]

You're saying that License Board, Sphere Grid, and WOW spec trees are the same, but they're actually not. These systems are only the same in the sense that they're all tools for customizing your characters. But aside from the fact that their all tools for customization they're actually very different. The difference is when and where the customization occurs and how much can be customized.

In the sphere grid your character starts off with a very specific role and only after developing your character and getting through the imposed barriers can you break off into other skill trees.

The license board gives you total freedom right away there aren't any constraints imposed like the barriers in the sphere grid and when your character is totally developed they can literally be any mix of skills and abilities without having any penalties. This destroys class uniqueness unless you want to self-impose constraints on your character to have them specialize in certain skills and create a "class" for them.

With WOW everyone starts off the same in a certain pre-defined classes and then specializes in certain skills provided by 3 different trees, you're encouraged to specialize because the deeper you go into the tree the more advanced abilities are available to you, you're limited by a total number of points that you can apply so that you can't be everything at once like you can in FFXII.

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When I said that the spec tree is so similar to what other MMOs are doing I wasn't trying to make a valid argument just saying my personal taste and preference. A lot of what we are discussing is just about opinon and preference not some logical argument about what is intrinsically better than the other. There's nothing intrinsically wrong about WOW spec trees, I just want to see something new.

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The main difference about the title system I was talking about and the class specialization system you are talking about is that while in the end you get FF classes and specialization, we're doing it in different ways.

You're system says that a Gladiator becomes a Dark Knight or a Paladin. So in your system, a DRK and PLD is a class the way a GLA is class. So after a certain level of GLA you choose DRK or PLD, do a quest and get a DRK or PLD weapon and become a specialized Gladiator. Can I do both specialization quests? Can I switch between DRK and PLD? Does GLA stop leveling up?

You system limits your "Advanced Jobs" to using only certain weapons and only coming from certain classes. Basically you're saying a Dark Knight is an advanced sword expert. But the advanced jobs from FFXI and other FF games weren't really defined by the weapons they used. So I don't think this idea is really consistent with the armory theme and the old job theme. Just my opinon.

With the title system you have two tiers of "classes" instead of just everything being a class in the same way. A GLA, CON, THM, etc can be a Red Mage, it doesnt require you to pick only one of those trees to make a Red Mage. This makes more sense to me because we know that Red Mages don't only have to use a certain particular weapon. A Red Mage is more a collection of skills, traits, and abilities and play style that don't limit it to being just a rapier and sword user.

So with a title system you have a weapon class and a title. You can mix your title with different weapon classes. The title gives you access to title-only traits and skills and the weapon class you choose helps to determine what type of title you are playing, what type of red mage are you going to be? A sword-using redmage(GLA), or a mage-type(CON/THM), or even some new style like lancer redmage or hand-to-hand redmage.

Here's some "classic" possible combinations:
Ranger = Ranger + Archer(Bow Ranger) or Ranger + Musketeer(Gun Ranger)
Dragoon = Dragoon + Lancer (Lance Dragoon) or Dragoon + Gladiator (Sword Dragoon)
Pirate = Pirate + Marauder (Axe Pirate) or Pirate + Musketeer (Gun Pirate)
Black Mage = BLM + CON (Burst Magic BLM) or BLM + THM (DOT Magic BLM)

You aren't completely constrained by the weapon you use (you can mix in skills from other weapons) You are just making yourself more effecient in using a particular role/play style which leaves you with a lot of options but creates the specialization and role recognition that people are looking for. This is like a new twist on the old class/sub class system.
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As far as unlocking FFT style. Title system doesn't have to work like that, you can have all titles unlocked through advance job style quests after a certain level. I think your system is actually more restrictive or grind inducing than an FFT style cause you are saying that if you want a DRK you are going to have to level up a Gladiator, but if you want a THF you are going to have to level up a pugilist separately.

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In the end SE will have their own ideas about how to implement new classes and probably won't "take" any of ideas other than maybe to get a sense of what kind of direction people want the game to go in. That's why I just wanted to throw some other ideas out there for people to see. These two threads are similar to what I would like to see implemented if you want to read more:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Class-Renaming
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...9889#post19889