[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Uraeus]

Uraeus approves the original post.

[Kurokikaze]

Not only is it impossible to give unlimited freedom and have it be balanced but even when you do have that freedom you don't do things like put Sleep on an Archer. From a min-max perspective thats really dumb; instead having that class take away another class' crowd control why not give them one (they also have Shadowbind)...?

What I'm trying to say is that even though you have all these choices now you always narrow it down to a select few because they seem to be the best choices that will help you do your role. While I may be imposing these restrictions on that system I am giving you some very valid choices and telling you to choose from there and still giving players enough wiggle room that they need to play around with certain combinations of talents/traits/skills to figure out whats best.

Freedom is an illusion. Just because you could sub whatever job you wanted to on your character doesn't mean you did. Specifically for RNG you chose between WAR, SAM and NIN not BLM/WHM/RDM/etc.

Do you understand what I mean?

As for this Spell Archer thats something I saw in the intro movie and thought would be cool for Battle Regimens but like a skillchain. With new visuals for the combined attack between a RNG's WS and BLM's fire nuke. Higher levels of it too that use higher level weapon skills and spells. Problem with that is they need to seriously rework Battle Regimens - not because of the idea but because its fundamentally clunky, hard to execute, and overall fairly pointless aside of a few things.

[Sorel]

My point is that right now today, in FFXIV, I can create a Spellarcher-type character. It's not impossible. It is possible right now. I am not proposing giving unlimited freedom. It is impossible to code that. But that SE did manage to code is the freedom we have right now in the game. I don't think that should be discarded, but instead built upon.

I personally do not believe it is progress or evolution to make the game not only more restrictive than it is currently, but more restrictive then the previous version (FFXI).

If I was only playing the game to build a walking, talking, fighting bag-of-roles called "Sorel" then the proposed system would be fine. I would lose nothing. But I'm not. I'm building a character ... a representative of me in Eorzea. My character needs to have a story, needs to grow, needs to be able to use his imagination ... my imagination ... to become better at whatever he chooses to do.

A character that aspires to start the first Spellarcher Guild in Eorzea has to deal with many limitations. He has to come up with a set of tactics that maximize his strengths (range) while minimizing weaknesses (spells can only be single target). He has to learn how to fit into a party and utilize his unique set of skills to bring them success. He has to figure out which of his tactics and skills are best used against certain enemies (Drown + Shell Arrow + Water vs. Firedrakes), and which enemies that he should avoid altogether. Figuring all this out for your character is part of the fun of any RPG ... including MMORPGs.

Now I understand the must be limits. But not all limits are of the same scope. Some are more restrictive than others. I believe that the proposed system, though well-intentioned and well-thought out, imposes just a little bit too much restriction. Limits are OK. Forcing a character into a box is what is disagree with philosophically. The proposed system takes away the player's freedom to make their own box for their character.

I think we will have to just agree to disagree on this. Anyway I do appreciate the OP, and the thread ... all 30 pages. Keep up the good work. And it is good work ... even if I don't agree with it. One should recognize and respect true talent and skill ... even if they have to oppose it in the end.

[Kurokikaze]

Yes you can do that. But is that good? Not in the slightest bit. You've essentially wasted action points because you will be outperformed by every other Archer that is boosting their attack by using their points to get abilities that do that from other classes as opposed to a spell they wont ever use.

Ahh I see, thats why we're not on the same page. I'm a person that encourages people to do their job and perform well at it. I'm a min-maxer, an FFXI BG poster, a WoW Elitist Jerks poster - you on the other hand are the type that plays what you want regardless of whether or not its good.

We will never agree. So I give up.

[Shazaam]

Ahh I see, thats why we're not on the same page. I'm a person that encourages people to do their job and perform well at it. I'm a min-maxer, an FFXI BG poster, a WoW Elitist Jerks poster - you on the other hand are the type that plays what you want regardless of whether or not its good.

We will never agree. So I give up.

I am with kaze on this, and similarily, a BG poster when I played FFXI and an elitist jerks reader when I played WoW... but I think that this is the kind of theorycraft and conjecture that are reflective of a game with limits that give true depth and 'replay-ability' that encourages both veterans and newcomers in this genre.

The base theory here does not make the game 'more restrictive than FFXI', it allows the game to be less restrictive than FFXI. Which was far less restrictive than WoW.

You have one character that can potentially change to any class anytime you chose.

The specializations of any advanced class may have to be changed in a city, but you could change from a specialized tank to a specialized healer to a specialized debuffer on the fly in the middle of a party. This is the most freedom that any MMO could possibly offer.

If you want to be a 'Spellarcher', either stick to the paper and pencil format, or try to find a dev tag for the battle system that would let you do the things shown in the opening movie... like a fireshot or freeze shot. (I think that might be what they are aiming for with the combat system revamp anyway... at least I hope it is... with battle regiments becoming more like combo skills... even a 'Meteo' cast by three different mages? FFXI or FFIV anyone?)

[Sorel]

Ahh I see, thats why we're not on the same page. I'm a person that encourages people to do their job and perform well at it. I'm a min-maxer, an FFXI BG poster, a WoW Elitist Jerks poster - you on the other hand are the type that plays what you want regardless of whether or not its good.

OMG, I think your right! I've been wondering why we have been able to have intelligent reasonable discourse on this, but why we can't find any middle ground. If we were climbing Mount Everest together, you would be trying to get to the top as best as you can, while I would be exploring every cave on the way up. I'm of the philosophy that the nature of a character should determine their class/job/stats, not the other way around.

A good example is my current character. He follows the philosophy of the Life-giving Sword & the Life-taking Sword. As such, when he's a Gladiator, he doesn't use shields. They are a cowardly piece of equipment to him. That character idiosyncrasy means that he'll always take more damage than a Gladiator that uses a shield. But that is his signature style of swordsmanship. It's that character's playstyle. I enjoy being able to create and choose my character's playstyle.

But, everyone is different. If all men liked the same thing we'd all be married to the same woman. Anyway, I think we have an understanding now. I'll stay subscribed to the thread, because it's a good read and I'd like to see how you progress in finalizing the system, but I'll try not to trouble you with any more antagonizing questions.

[javid]

I am happy to see ppl thinking of creative ways to make classes more unique yet maintain cohesion! I like the gla idea turning into drk/pld I would also parry that to the mrd as well, giving both of those classes the ability to pick between drk/pld. The mrd would be an aoe pld focus while the gla would make a one on one pld. And for the magic class give conj and thm the ability to become summoners/brd-like magic caster!!

[javid]

change of thought!! gla= nin/pld mrd= drk/musk (cor) lnc= sam/viking (drg/dnc) arc= bst/?? conj= smn/brd thm= smn/??

[Dyvid]

So would the Dark Knight be using a sword and shield too?

[Shazaam]

So would the Dark Knight be using a sword and shield too?

As far as I understand it, not really. You would be using a sword-type weapon, be it a great sword or a sycthe-melee weapon that used sword skill. You would still gain sword points towards raising your base GLD class, and perhaps points towards raising your base THM class, while still gaining points towards your DRK advanced class.

If you decide that you want to switch to PLD, then the abilities and skill points earned towards your base GLD class while leveling DRK would still remain, but your PLD advance class and 'tree' would be at the minimum (or lvl 1). But you would still have access to all the base GLD skill you had obtained while leveling your PLD.

Of course, if you wanted to use a sword and shield as a DRK and use pure GLD skills augmented by the DRK 'tree' you could. You could probably even tank... but elitist groups and endgame content wouldn't want you to. But you could if you wanted to. Not optimal, but viable.... and who knows, maybe even the best way to bend the rules (Drk/nin Kraken club?).
At least that is my understanding of the system.