[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Allistar]

That would be more classes to be balanced in the end and extra work considering they are.

Also I'm going on this:



Neither of those choices leaves room for the current classes to be fully functioning classes along with the FF ones. So I made them transition into the advanced class (specializations).

I don't see the balancing as an issue, think about it, everytime any new content or items or mobs get introduced we have to worry about balancing issues...its continuous, because there will always be something that SE didn't see in their initial testing. In all honesty I see the kind of system that worked in XI work here in XIV, but maybe even better...multiple DD, multiple healers/nukers/support, multiple tanks, give us variety. XIV has a lot of potential to be a very good game, influences from outside are nice but they should not distract from what makes the FF series different from any other rpgs/mmo's out there.

[Allistar]

Oh and by the way OP, your post is a pretty amazing read.

[Sorel]

One last question.

There are over 40 traditional Final Fantasy jobs. I don't expect any system to be able to handle them all. But how expandable will the proposed system be after the initial half dozen to dozen Job Trees are introduced? Would all the existing Job Trees need to be rebalanced and/or reassigned, if SE wanted to introduce a Musketeer or Bard Armory Class? What if SE wanted to make a Soldier or Blue Mage Job Tree available? Would additional Classes and Job Trees be easy to add?

I know, that was about 3 questions. I apologize in advance for my probing.

[Kurokikaze]

Adding new classes and trees would be easy and they wouldn't need to re-balance the older classes unless they were adding an extra spec to the an existing tree. They would need to make sure that everything falls in inline with whats there if thats the case.

I could see them adding classes in either patches or expansions (the latter would require more to make it worth it of course). A patch would introduce 1 base class with 2-3 different Advanced Class paths that branch of it.

[Sorel]

Thank you, Kurokikaze for answering all my questions. I have to admit that I do prefer an advanced job system more akin to Final Fantasy Tactics versus the system that is being proposed here.

The proposed system is comprehensive, but relatively complex due to the point sub-system, the Job Tree restrictions, and the necessary overhaul of a majority of the Armory Class abilities to the Job Trees. Some character progress would be effectively wiped by the change over. The proposed system is also more restrictive than the job/subjob system from FFXI. Some might consider that a step backwards, rather than evolution forward.

I also disagree with your interpretation of Naoki Yoshida's interview. Yoshida-san never stated that he was scrapping, eliminating, or depreciating the existing Armory Classes. The proposed system assumes and seems to count on the certainty that a Rank 50 Gladiator will always be less effective in all areas of gameplay than a Level 50 Paladin or Dark Knight. The proposed system can be engineered to enforce that, but should it be??

The proposed system will require considerably more development in the form of the necessary tree and point sub-systems, and will undo a good amount of what is already developed in the Armory System.

All that being said, IF Yoshida-san and his team decide to go the more restrictive Job Tree Specialization route, instead of a more creativity-fostering Advanced/Prestige Job route ... the system proposed here would be how I would want them to proceed. It is well thought out and comprehensive. Though I may oppose it in principle and philosophically for the reasons I stated above, I cannot dispute that it is a viable alternative worthy of serious and respectful consideration.

I thank you and your team for putting it forward, and patiently explaining it.

[Dyvid]

Honestly I don't like the idea of having one class tied to another. I would rather all classes be tied to different weapons. If I want to be a Dark Knight then I equip great sword, a katana for Ninja.

I know this is shameless promotion but I made a thread trying to approach this discussion from a different angle, http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-System-debate

My hope is to add to the current while keeping it Final Fantasy based. I know alot of people loved using grids and tables for customizing characters and wanted to keep it in tune to that.

[Kurokikaze]

The proposed system is comprehensive, but relatively complex due to the point sub-system, the Job Tree restrictions, and the necessary overhaul of a majority of the Armory Class abilities to the Job Trees. Some character progress would be effectively wiped by the change over. The proposed system is also more restrictive than the job/subjob system from FFXI. Some might consider that a step backwards, rather than evolution forward.

How exactly would current character progress be wiped?

[Sorel]

How exactly would current character progress be wiped?

Some (not all) character progress would effectively be wiped (made useless or unavailable) by the extensive re-balancing of abilities mentioned in the OP.

They will have traits and abilities that can only be used while in that spec. In order to appease the players that have grown fond of using abilities from other disciplines; let them use skills from the class up until a certain rank or go through them all up to a certain rank and re-balance them for use cross-class. Unfortunately the thing that is repeated in both methods is "up to a certain rank" - don't be fooled: the line must be drawn somewhere to avoid exploiting and promote uniqueness across all classes. Personally I would re-balance skills up to Rank 20 and draw the line there. I can hear the complaints already from people who use Rank 30+ skills on other classes but these people are oblivious to the fact that that is killing other classes. Unfortunately this is something that I feel must be done.

A player is currently building a character to be an Elezen Spellarcher (a master of ranged combat, be it martial or mystical) by combining her Rank 40 Archery with her Rank 40 Conjurery. So right now, that character can wield a bow and cast Sleep (at reduced effect) to help maintain crowd control and to allow her to keep her range if the enemy gets too close. Or that character can wield a wand and use enmity reducing abilities like Chameleon & Out Of Sight to keep attention away from herself.

The ability rebalancing and cross-class cut-off of abilities after Rank 30 that the proposed system would require, makes the above character concept no longer possible. That player's effort and progress to build a Spellarcher would effectively be wiped to a certain degree due to the restriction imposed by the proposed system.

Again, as an old-school D&D player, I'm a fan of encouraging creative character builds. It seems like the proposed system takes some creativity out of the hands of the players, and puts it in the hands of that developement person that assigns abilities to the Job Trees. Under the proposed system, the only way to build a character like what I described above would be for SE to make a Spellarcher Job Specialization Tree specifically for it.

Once again, let me know if I am mistaken in this regard.

[Shazaam]

The ability rebalancing and cross-class cut-off of abilities after Rank 30 that the proposed system would require, makes the above character concept no longer possible. That player's effort and progress to build a Spellarcher would effectively be wiped to a certain degree due to the restriction imposed by the proposed system.

Again, as an old-school D&D player, I'm a fan of encouraging creative character builds. It seems like the proposed system takes some creativity out of the hands of the players, and puts it in the hands of that developement person that assigns abilities to the Job Trees. Under the proposed system, the only way to build a character like what I described above would be for SE to make a Spellarcher Job Specialization Tree specifically for it.

Once again, let me know if I am mistaken in this regard.

'

You are not mistaken. The only way to build a character that you described would be for SE to make a 'Spellarcher' Job specialization tree.

The problem here is that you want a paper-based D&D system for your MMO. There just is not the amount of money, time, or resources to recreate the power of the human imagination in a computer game. The proposed system DOES take some of the creativity out of the player's hands, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to give ultimate creativity to the players in any game.

First you must realize the truth: that there is no Spellarcher. There will not be a Spellarcher. Let's try to focus on something feasible and FUN instead of what could be created with sheer imagination. The tech just isn't capable. The best you can make is a mage with archer skills. If I can make ANYTHING then it is boring. If I have to work withing certain rules with enough room to BEND them but not BREAK them it is fun. (IE: you want to be a 'Spellarcher'? Team up a battle regimen with a mage and turn your shot into a Sleepshot or Fireshot from having the mage cast a spell while you fire an arrow in a specific way).

Limitless possibility is boring (and unachievable), learning to BEND the rules is fun. There have to be rules to bend.

[Nivana]

Too many posts to quote on an iPad at work so, 2nd FFT style unlocking of advanced classes.

Love the idea of Each class separate from each other with it's own weapons.