[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Killirz]

Why should I have to play 30 levels of a subclass I don't want to really play just to unlock the class I do want to play(I am not in favor of this either, it is just an example)?

-Have Fun

In my opinion, you still are playing the class you like from level 1. I mean, with the Gladiator/Paladin example, you'll still be tanking as a low level Gladiator if you would like up until you actually choose to specialize as Paladin. It is just all of the very specific and powerful class skills, such as the high level paladin cures, are reserved for a paladin only. This is to give that specific class an identity and a use once you reach that point.

Someone aiming to be a Dark Knight would have the choice of equipping more damage based abilities at low levels rather than defense based. This option is still available to Gladiator in this system, because of the cross-class abilities at the lower levels.

The level requirement for advanced jobs is also good because it helps determine which job abilities will be strictly for that specific class, and which will be usable on other classes.

[Sorel]

Let's see if I get it. Again, I am obtuse at times. Please take no offense at my ignorance.

So Gladiator (Sword User) can at a certain Swordsmanship rank (say Rank 25) have the option to complete a quest that makes a specific job tree available. Paladin, Dark Knight, Samurai, Soldier, and/or Thief comes to mind.

The same character also has Marauder and Pugilist at Rank 25, and therefore have the option to complete quests that make the job trees for Dark Knight, Thief, Monk, and Soldier available as well.

So the character can be a Thief (i.e. use abilities from the Thief Job Tree) whether wielding an ax, knuckles, or sword. If the character decides to start ranking up Thaumaturge at 1, he will not have access to any of the abilities of the Thief Job Tree while wielding either a wand or radical (conjurer weapons), even if he gets Conjurer to Rank 25, because Thief is not an available job tree to Conjurers.

As I type this out I think I'm remembering why I do not like specialization trees. But let me reserve judgment until you have a chance to respond. Like I said before, I can be mistaken.

[Anathiel]

I thought of this while running after work, what about the people that don't want to do an advanced class? would they get talent points to put in their spec tree too? for instance, instead of at rank 15 a gladiator getting a talent point to put in his pld spec or drk spec, he would be able to spec his base class gladiator.

remember, that alot of people played war, thf, mnk in ff:xi rather than go advanced job.

[Kurokikaze]

Let's see if I get it. Again, I am obtuse at times. Please take no offense at my ignorance.

So Gladiator (Sword User) can at a certain Swordsmanship rank (say Rank 25) have the option to complete a quest that makes a specific job tree available. Paladin, Dark Knight, Samurai, Soldier, and/or Thief comes to mind.

The same character also has Marauder and Pugilist at Rank 25, and there for have the option to complete quests that make the job trees for Dark Knight, Thief, Monk, and Soldier available as well.

So the character can be a Thief (i.e. use abilities from the Thief Job Tree) whether wielding an ax, knuckles, or sword. If the character decides to start ranking up Thaumaturge at 1, he will not have access to any of the abilities of the Thief Job Tree while wielding either a wand or radical (conjurer weapons), even if he gets Conjurer to Rank 25, because Thief is not an available job tree to Conjurers.

As I type this out I think I'm remembering why I do not like specialization trees. But let me reserve judgment until you have a chance to respond. Like I said before, I can be mistaken.

First off, under my proposal certain Advanced Classes will be made possible from a particular Base Class. You would not have Thief/Dark Knight appearing for Pugilist and Gladiator (one or the other) otherwise its both unfair and unbalanced. When I put that in the OP I said those were examples of where they could be based on Dagger falling under Sword in FFXIV.

If they used this and Pugilist turns into a Thief/Monk/Ninja then if you want to level a Thief you will have to start as a Pugilist.

If that player starts playing Thaumaturge they will not have access to the Thief specs unless they switch back to Gladiator.

I think you're confusing yourself with the FFT unlocks that were suggested. I'd personally rather not have them but players seem to want it and it works with the system so whatever.

[Kurokikaze]

I thought of this while running after work, what about the people that don't want to do an advanced class? would they get talent points to put in their spec tree too? for instance, instead of at rank 15 a gladiator getting a talent point to put in his pld spec or drk spec, he would be able to spec his base class gladiator.

remember, that alot of people played war, thf, mnk in ff:xi rather than go advanced job.

No that wont be possible. The devs are planning to make the base class more or less irrelevant. It's just a starting point to a classic FF class. Future content is balanced under the assumption that everyone is playing an advanced class.

Also, in the OP I said that calling FFXI's PLD/DRK/NIN/SAM/etc an "Advanced Job" was incorrect. They are not advanced; they are just an extra job that needed to be unlocked. If FFXI's initial jobs were the base and they had Advanced jobs then the Warrior would have turned into a Knight; think FFI.

[Elcura]

If FFXI's initial jobs were the base and they had Advanced jobs then the Warrior would have turned into a Knight; think FFI.

In this case though, the name and appearance change was merely for story's sake. Warrior could have still been called warrior and looked like a warrior but have "Knight" skills. It was still a totally linear progression path; the change was mere smoke and mirrors.

Though as you could see it, specializations are a way of expanding a class that already exists. It could simply be semantics, but it seems like it's important.

The way you word it (though it could be his intention, idk), it sounds like the base jobs, PUG/GLD etc are disappearing, and in a sense they are, but they're still intact despite it not being... obvious.

Which is why I suggested that cross class abilities come from the basic jobs (which would ideally grow as well) which still gives them purpose and doesn't make them irrelevant like you say the devs intend (which is not the impression I get).

There's also a possibility of the basic jobs being a middle ground. I know some people like the middle ground (it doesn't bode with this thread, which is just my assumption), GLD would be a mix of offense and defense, while DRK and PLD tend to swing in polar opposite directions.

[Kurokikaze]

Yeah now we're arguing semantics again. I was just trying to make an example of FFXI with linear progression and an actual Advanced Class.

I agreed with you when you initially said it. There should be abilities that are cross class but they should be generic stuff that wouldn't be too overpowered or take away from any other class. 14 has a plethora of generic abilities they could shuffle around and spread throughout the levels 1-50. Spells every 2 levels is really dumb imo.

[Shuichi]

Let's see if I get it. Again, I am obtuse at times. Please take no offense at my ignorance.

So Gladiator (Sword User) can at a certain Swordsmanship rank (say Rank 25) have the option to complete a quest that makes a specific job tree available. Paladin, Dark Knight, Samurai, Soldier, and/or Thief comes to mind.

The same character also has Marauder and Pugilist at Rank 25, and therefore have the option to complete quests that make the job trees for Dark Knight, Thief, Monk, and Soldier available as well.

So the character can be a Thief (i.e. use abilities from the Thief Job Tree) whether wielding an ax, knuckles, or sword. If the character decides to start ranking up Thaumaturge at 1, he will not have access to any of the abilities of the Thief Job Tree while wielding either a wand or radical (conjurer weapons), even if he gets Conjurer to Rank 25, because Thief is not an available job tree to Conjurers.

As I type this out I think I'm remembering why I do not like specialization trees. But let me reserve judgment until you have a chance to respond. Like I said before, I can be mistaken.

In order to be a THF, a character must have achieved level 20/25/XX of the base class Pugilist (PUG would be the foundation for all branching classes). Then, by completing the correct class quest, they are rewarded with a dagger that can only be used by THF. In order to change classes to THF, they would need to equip the appropriate arm. They can only access THF abilities by equipping a THF appropriate weapon. Since THF is an specialized class, most (if not all) of their actions can only be equipped on the action bar by the class THF. This would, however, require some reworking as to which class can equip which weapon.

If you look at PUG right now in FFXIV it actually shares traits from MNK/NIN/THF.
MNK: Uses martial arts. (Pummel)
NIN: Uses debuffing tactics to debilitate enemies (Concussive Blow)
THF: Uses evasive tactics and attacks enemies from vulnerable spots (Blindside, Featherfoot)

So if a player has a goal of becoming a THF (under this system we would have player development goals), they would need to start out with PUG, reach the branching point, and complete the quest to develop THF.

[Elcura]

Yeah now we're arguing semantics again.

And I only do so because it feels like that aspect is being lost or buried, which would be a real shame.

It's funny, because though I feel like I disagree with you sometimes, I don't.

[Sorel]

First off, under my proposal certain Advanced Classes will be made possible from a particular Base Class. You would not have Thief/Dark Knight appearing for Pugilist and Gladiator (one or the other) otherwise its both unfair and unbalanced. When I put that in the OP I said those were examples of where they could be based on Dagger falling under Sword in FFXIV.

If they used this and Pugilist turns into a Thief/Monk/Ninja then if you want to level a Thief you will have to start as a Pugilist.

If that player starts playing Thaumaturge they will not have access to the Thief specs unless they switch back to Gladiator.

I think you're confusing yourself with the FFT unlocks that were suggested. I'd personally rather not have them but players seem to want it and it works with the system so whatever.

I might be. If so I apologize. I'm trying to learn your system so that I do not prejudge or leap to false conclusions (e.g. this is too restrictive). I may eventually come to that conclusion, but I don't want to before I completely understand what you are proposing.

If I understand what you just stated, the only way for a character to gain access to the Monk Job Tree is to rank Hand-to-Hand up. The only way for a character to gain access to the Dark Knight Job Tree is to rank Swordsmanship up. The only way for a character to gain access to the Berserker Job Tree is to rank Axemanship.

In order to have a Berserker that uses a sword, or a Dark Knight that uses an axe, or a Monk that uses a staff, we would need to have those Job Trees have traits like "Equip Sword", "Equip Axe", and "Equip Staff" in order to bypass the Armory System rules.

Or not, and just have those particular job trees be restricted to the weapon of the underlying Armory Class. Just so that we're clear, I am certainly not recommending that. And I don't think you are either.

Have I got it so far, or am I completely off in left field here?