[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Betelgeuzah]

Yep, and thats where we disagree entirely. More choices doesn't always turn out to be better. We have a hundreds of choices in FFXIV now but we're still having this conversation.

Is it because there's more choice or something else entirely, though? As long as it is beneficial to limit our options to achieve a better game experience, they should do it.. but I don't agree with limiting us needlessly, just because other games do it.

For example, why would they do this:

Now you further divide each section (impose limits to prevent abuse) into levels. Keep it simple for now with 5 levels. You need to put a certain amount of points into BLM Lv1 before you can use points on abilities/skills/traits in BLM Lv2. This would prevent overreaching that is happening now with people using Rank 30+ traits on different classes.

?

I'm not disagreeing, yet, but I'd like to hear what exactly makes the above superior to being able to choose what skills to use more freely. I can see that to use certain traits, you should have certain amount of specialized skills/spells equipped (kinda sounds like... BLU?), but I don't currently see why it has to expand to skills and spells in general. The specialized skills simply need be locked to the class in question, imo. Just like you couldn't use skills and spells above lvl37 in XI for obvious reasons.

[Kurokikaze]

Is it because there's more choice or something else entirely, though? As long as it is beneficial to limit our options to achieve a better game experience, they should do it.. but I don't agree with limiting us needlessly, just because other games do it.

For example, why would they do this:



?

I'm not disagreeing, yet, but I'd like to hear what exactly makes the above superior to being able to choose what skills to use more freely. I can see that to use certain traits, you should have certain amount of specialized skills/spells equipped (kinda sounds like... BLU?), but I don't currently see why it has to expand to skills and spells in general. The specialized skills simply need be locked to the class in question, imo. Just like you couldn't use skills and spells above lvl37 in XI for obvious reasons.

As yourself this, why would I suggest this if I don't feel that it would better the game experience for players? Also this make future balancing for the devs much easier.

Because the way we have it now:

If I leveled CON and THM to 50: I would pick the best skills from each of those and combine them. I'm killing one or both jobs in the process by taking something that is unique to one and using it on the other. This goes back to class uniqueness and is exactly why the devs and the majority of players feel its an issue.

This is happening right now with every single class. As I said in the OP; "I don't know many people that leveled LNC to 50 but I can name a few dozen that leveled it to 20 for Fleet of Foot".

I agree with you that the line needs to be drawn somewhere as it was in XI. Currently there is no line and thats where a portion of the problem is.

[Shuichi]

I'm going to copy/pasta my comment from our discussion on BG about advanced classes. Advance class growth can be done within the current construct of the armory system (weapon = class).

Yes. They can actually keep the current action/trait system that's in place and just apply the rulesets already in-game for various abilities. For example (just picking random numbers here to illustrate point):

Advanced Class: Black Mage (R25)
Total Action Points Available: 30
Spells I want to equip on action bar:
Flare 2 - (Required Level: BLM R25, Action Points Required 10)
Flood 2 - (Required Level: BLM R25, Action Points Required 10)
Aspir - (Required Level: BLM R25, Action Points Required 5)
Bio - (Required Level: BLM R25, Action Points Required 5)

Under this scenario they can allow class identity and at the same time address class balance by using action points to limit how many powerful abilities a player can equip.

Now, of course, the conclusion will be drawn that you have fulfilled the logical requirements to even consider equipping these actions:
Requirements:
1. Advance class quest completed
2. Appropriate arm equipped (staff or whatever)
2. Rank 25 Black Mage achieved

The armory system already gives you more action points as you level up so you would just continue to grow and develop your character.

[Kurokikaze]

Yeah, but if they're planning on adding BLM specific armor, going by the recent letter from Yoshi-P, they're doing this regardless. What path they're choosing is what we want to influence.

Also before I forget: Quick shout out to the person that mentioned "REMEMBER THE RULES OF FC" - Fuck yeah man, good times. lol

[Kurokikaze]

Thank you Shuichi, this is what I wanted to see when I started this thread. How we can take the groundwork from the OP and better integrate it into the game reusing as much as possible so that it won't take a long time.

[Anathiel]

Alright now that I fully understand your system, yeah you're right it is a good system...but not original (or final fantasy-esque). And right now yoshi-p is trying not to copy (too much) main stream MMO's. Good ides, but I don't think they're going that way.

[Shazaam]

Alright now that I fully understand your system, yeah you're right it is a good system...but not original (or final fantasy-esque). And right now yoshi-p is trying not to copy (too much) main stream MMO's. Good ides, but I don't think they're going that way.

A good idea is a good idea. Nobody in WoW is currently complaining that having an AH was 'too much like FFXI', or that the new battlegrounds were 'too much stolen from WAR'. Nobody in Call of Duty is calling the game a Doom clone, and nobody in MvC3 thinks it's a tekken tag rip-off.

Games are about evolution. Good artists create, great artists steal. It's not like 'talent trees' weren't a ripoff of the old school FFs anyway... Why shouldn't SE be able to reclaim and reuse ideas they were responsible for in the first place?

[Anathiel]

Which final fantasy had a spec tree? And CoD had the originality of leveling up and an amazing contol layout. So...I'm curious what don't you guys like about having a final fantasy tactics style of getting the advance jobs?

[Shazaam]

Which final fantasy had a spec tree? And CoD had the originality of leveling up and an amazing contol layout. So...I'm curious what don't you guys like about having a final fantasy tactics style of getting the advance jobs?

Spec tree, sphere grid, job ranks, license board... take your pick, it's all the same concept with a different GUI.

CoD didn't invent leveling up, it stole the idea and incorporated it. That made the game good. My point was that using other games ideas isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing. It's about progress, and no 'Next-gen' game has been 100% completely original, they beg borrow and steal to make something fun, and we don't care as long as the end product is fun.

Sorry for the derail there.

Rerail:

Kaze has a good concept here, I want to throw some ideas at it and see if they help it even if most of them might suck. (actually, I should probably keep my mouth shut and think them through a little more.... gonna do that)

[Kurokikaze]

Spec tree, sphere grid, job ranks, license board... take your pick, it's all the same concept with a different GUI.

Thank you Shazam. They are all the same concept. Even our current Action Traits Menu is a form of "talent tree" except that one lacks a GUI.

Maybe, they could do that to let people show off that they've mastered many classes but I'm not sure its needed. Shouldn't the ability of being able to switch when you want, wherever you want to something else when you have it leveled be enough? You can instantly change your roles on the go. "Group has enough tanks for this encounter and another player wants in but doesn't have another class leveled. You switch to DD or healer and let them in."