(Slight) Changes to Job Crystal System

[RickmanUK]

With the expansion coming, if they plan on expanding existing classes with additional job crystals I think a slight revamp would need to take place.
I just feel classes like Gladiator, Pugilist, Conjurer, and Thaumaturge suffer from being too similar to their Job counterparts, with or without the crystal.

Don't Wanna Sound too much like an Arse... But That's the Point of them at the Moment. The Jobs are Specialized Additions ontop of the Existing Training you've got with that Skill-set/Class. They ARE Similar because they use the Same Basic Skills as a Leap into Further power. Only one that Stands Slightly Apart is Summoner/Scholar, And Even they use the Same Basic Knowledge (Summoner is using the Knowledge as a "Lens" for much Older Knowledge which is Largely Lost).

Any Additional Jobs for the Basic Classes should use the existing Training as a Stepping Stone too greater power, Gladiators Adding "Dark Magic" too their Skills too boost their Power would be the Foundation of say the Dark Knight, Conjurer's Focusing Less on the Balance of Nature and more on it's Fury could be Geomancers Basis.
Not Gonna Argue.. The Job System could do with Some Tweaks.. But Breaking Everything away Completly from the Classes will make the Game lose some of it's Flavour. (Too me Anyway)

[Ravenguard]

Don't Wanna Sound too much like an Arse... But That's the Point of them at the Moment. The Jobs are Specialized Additions ontop of the Existing Training you've got with that Skill-set/Class. They ARE Similar because they use the Same Basic Skills as a Leap into Further power. Only one that Stands Slightly Apart is Summoner/Scholar, And Even they use the Same Basic Knowledge (Summoner is using the Knowledge as a "Lens" for much Older Knowledge which is Largely Lost).

And I would completely agree with you if the intent was only to offer on single Job crystal per class as a direct increase in power to said class. But because (I assume) the intent of the system was to add multiple roles per class I feel like a little Job definition would be required in order to facilitate the performance of a specific role (be it Tank, Healer, DPS). For instance, Sword Oath on the Paladin crystal does little to assist with Tanking (compared to just taking off Shield Oath).

Any Additional Jobs for the Basic Classes should use the existing Training as a Stepping Stone too greater power, Gladiators Adding "Dark Magic" too their Skills too boost their Power would be the Foundation of say the Dark Knight, Conjurer's Focusing Less on the Balance of Nature and more on it's Fury could be Geomancers Basis.
Not Gonna Argue.. The Job System could do with Some Tweaks.. But Breaking Everything away Completly from the Classes will make the Game lose some of it's Flavour. (Too me Anyway)

Unfortunately, I dont see trying to turn a Gladiator into a Dark Knight by way of only 5 crystal abilities a feesable thing. That seems like something that would need to be built from the ground up as a seperate class.

Just in case there was any confusion, what I was trying to say is that the Job crystals should grant classes tools to perform their specific role in a party better to allow role diversity if said class was equipped of a different crystal (Crystals should focus on Damage Reduction cooldowns for Tank roles, Healing Abilities for Healers, Damage Abilities and DPS cooldowns for Damage Dealers, etc.).

[RickmanUK]

What is Sounded Like (too me anyway) you were saying in the First Past was that the Classes should become More Role-Neutral and the Jobs should be what Defines them... That Doesn't Work for me. If they Did that people would play The Classes they Want Yeah.. But they'd Also Assume that they Can Tank as a Black Mage as they don't have too Worry about it as a Thaumatage...

Maybe i got Crossed Wires on what you Said sure.. But that's how it Came Across too me Ravenguard

Moving Forward I Don't Mind Some Classes having no "Secondary" Roles, Aslong as that is the Design Intent in the First Place. Arcanist Works Great as a Dual-Role Class/Job, Conjurer Wouldn't asmuch, Gladiator i Can See them Adding a "Duelist" too Maybe Drops the Shield in Favour of Say an Parrying Dagger, First Ability would be A Stance that Makes them Strike twice per Auto Attack? Second Maybe a Riposte available if you Parry an Attack?

Mauraders i Could Say Beserker.. but that rings too Close too the Warrior as it is now.. Barely Contained Rage focused on Destruction.

[Ravenguard]

What is Sounded Like (too me anyway) you were saying in the First Past was that the Classes should become More Role-Neutral and the Jobs should be what Defines them... That Doesn't Work for me. If they Did that people would play The Classes they Want Yeah.. But they'd Also Assume that they Can Tank as a Black Mage as they don't have too Worry about it as a Thaumatage...

Sorry for the confusion. Role-Neutral is a kind of a good way to describe it, however this isn't quite what I ment.

Using BLM as an example (though arguable they are a more "locked-in" class as far as their abilities/rotation), the idea would be to have their Job crystals contain more DPS-focused abilities and buffs (Like Flare and maybe Fire III / Ice III / Thunder III) to expand how they DPS and play, and not so much what they current get (Apocatastasis, Freeze, Manawall) as these provide great utility, but don't excel their DPS or change their rotation in any way. If you were to give them a second Job Crystal (another DPS crystal I guess?) they would still feel and play almost identical to Black Mage (minus Flare).

A better example is trying to give Warrior or Paladin a DPS crystal. They have many defensive abilities innately, that were they given competitive DPS to current jobs, they would take substantially less damage and require less healing at the same time (with Warrior arguably less so).

One concept I was brainstorming was a Ranger Job Crystal for Archer. To make this happen they would need to nerf Archer's innate skills slightly, and then rebuff them through the 5 abilities granted by the Ranger Job crystal. This way, if you required utility and group buffing, you can assist your team through your songs as Bard at the cost of damage. However, if you need more DPS (or already have a Bard in the group), you are able to equip the Ranger Job crystal and Pew Pew away for more deeps!

[dvoraen]

The main issue I have with the Job Crystal system as it stands right now, is that it doesn't really support role changes in a level sync environment, as we see with Arcanist -> Scholar. Specifically, just let the fairy do the work while the Scholar can just hit Cleric Stance and behave as an Arcanist all day. (This also doesn't get into the ability progression issues, such as the lack of status cure in places like Brayflox's Longstop. Round 1 went to White Mages here by far, until the Antidote change went in.)

What I'd personally like to see, is the Job Crystal basically overwrite the class progression and trait acquisition with its own line. So, to use Scholar as my poster child, you could have something like this happen (traits are in brackets):

1 - Ruin
2 - Physick
4 - Bio
4 - Summon (Eos)
6 - Aetherflow
8 - Energy Drain / [Aetherdam]
10 - Miasma
12 - Virus
14 - [Enhanced Mind I] / (Eos: Whispering Dawn)
15 - Summon II (Selene)
16 - [Enhanced Mind II]
18 - Leeches / Sustain
22 - Resurrection

and so on. I wouldn't personally do it exactly like that, as I consider it more of a bandaid approach, but that's not the point. My point is: mix in the important Scholar healing abilities at lower levels instead of enforcing it to be at the level acquired via the Job crystal. Some abilities (Leeches the big one) should be available roughly at the same time as other classes in the same role, if only so that they're each on a similar level at a given bracket of progression... if that made sense.