Massive fail by Matsui - telling melee range to suck it up for not getting invites

[Kensei]

Well no nerfing the damage of Archers/increasing the damage of other War damage classes will help. There has to be incentive to invite other War damage classes, damage would be a great incentive.

The other classes deal great damage, it is not an issue. With the increased MP costs SE made healing an issue. Archer's range allows mages to be able to focus their MP on the tank making it easier to clear the dungeon that way. However it very possible to clear the dungeon with melee classes. You can't give incentive to laziness, that's a player/community issue, not the game's design.

Either you can bring other War classes and have higher DPS and thus clear some things faster or you can bring some Archers which increases survivability at the cost of some of that DPS.

A reasonable damage boost to the melee classes would never greatly overshadow Archer. It would just not be fair or make sense. The only thing they could do is make them all deal comparable damage but even then if the players are too lazy to reposition themselves at the sides to not get hit by AoE that is their problem not the game's. You are asking for SE to force players to invite other classes when that's a community issue.

It's not just damage or just range, it's the fact that they have the best of both worlds. You certainly can't decrease their range in comparison to other classes but damage is an acceptable balance.

The best of the two in this instance, not in general. You want SE to adjust the game based on one raid. What if the boss stayed static in one position and there was AoE all over the place except at melee range? Then Archers wouldn't get invites because they can take very little damage compared to the other classes. Would that mean that they have to give Archers the same durability as a Gladiator? Of course not. Every encounter will be easier for some, it's variety. Now it's an issue because it's the one raid. As SE adds more raids encounters will favor different approaches.

[Etienn]

Oh no people get sidelined! Let's all cry!

Did you even play 11 OP? Wtf.

Most people did, BUT AND ONLY BUT!! there are only 5 classes, one of which is ranged attack oriented, the other's have attacks yes with chakram and throwing swords, but what good is that?

again there is five classes man...

[Neptune]

The ironic thing is that in the other threads about mages being nerfed, it was most often the non-tank melee classes that were saying "the higher MP cost is good" and "mages, learn to play".

That is ironic.. shows how foolish it was to go into a thread typing L2P when they're the ones sitting in Ul'Dah with no invites. Go figure.

I always liked the idea of arc n mage nukes being so powerful u have to hold back and be in more control of your hate because defense is low. They got it half right, now just hoping for the mage nukes to be adjusted. Since the Melee are closer they could be more precise with enfeeblement and boosting morale (buffs), so im hoping they go the way of making the melee more useful with abilities than with extra dmg.

Just an opinion on what could be done, hoping this is what jobs will introduce.

Thanks for posting Deren! Great suggestion. Lancer is already a great thing to have in pt. Hope we can do another run soon.

Let the "flavor of the month" begin. It's sad too since FF14 is still an embryo.

Incoming continual buffs (meaning nerfs for some) that will start the endless spiral.

You know many I sincerely hope this doesn't become the case. Anyone can view the WoW patch notes to see Blizzard's fool's errand of class balance. I really think the only thing that keeps them from going insane is some of the dev team members are personally entertained by the continual changes.

His response needs more "crystal tools limitations"

lol, yeah.

I had to laugh... kept refraining from posting the whole thread until this.

So just to understand, you start the "suggestion" thread with a huge insult, followed by a half hearted thank you.

Then you continue to post an unofficial translation from which you paraphrase into a different context instead of the official translation posted by a community rep which states the response from the dev team in a manner that you can't manipulate as easy http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post274028.

Then you single out one statement and assume that it can only mean one thing, and then berate the guy based off your assumption about class balance and battle systems that they have stated haven't been finished yet.

Then you throw in your real concern, (high mp cost of cures) which you could have just stated in the first place instead of trying to belittle the first pass efforts of the dev team for five paragraphs.

And this is your tactic for posting a "suggestion"?

Good luck with that, I'm sure it will be well recieved.

Strategy works two ways, players might need to adjust to class mechanics, class damage might need to be tweaked, or the mechanics of the fight might need to be changed to increase risk to ranged classes. It' doesn't nessecarily mean "you need to learn to play", and your implication that they ment that is fairly rude, considering right after that statement they say they are monitoring it and will address it, saying again afterwards that more changes are inbound.

Quite simply, you are mad about the mp cost, and see it as the root of all evil, and trying to blame it on someone. I don't like the higher costs either. The differance is that I'm not assuming that it's now set in stone and I need to insult and berate people to get it fixed my way. I don't assume my way is the only way to fix it. I realize that the game is probably at it's most unstable state right now since release with classes changed and jobs not yet put in. Maybe a whitemage job gets 50% cure mp reduction? I don't know, neither do you.

Your over-reacting and lashing out. Step back, state your "suggestion" in a more repectful tone, and then wait and see what happens.

Ok first of all you're right about your last section. I should have been more respectful. Sometimes I am just so surprised at what this dev team does I react with some emotion. The truth is I do greatly respect Matsui, which is why I added the note at the top. I can't fully make up for the emotional jab.

It is an insult to Matsui.. but rightly so because he insulted all melee players of this game whether they realize it or not. Anyway in the end insults don't matter, what matters is where we go from here.

You're trying to say I diluted the meaning of Mocchi's post.. Mocchi posted in response to pub. What's diluting is reading the English translation without the translation of the OP. Ok that is misleading! So let's look at the whole picture. Matsui is telling melee players to suck it up by his actions, not with his words. It's like a newspaper headline, it's my commentary. There shouldn't be any question about the exact meaning of Matsui's words with the original Japanese right in the OP and as you said you have the English translation right in front of you as well. It's plain as day.

I don't want anyone to think that my implication is Matsui was telling melee to L2P.. his disconnection to melee players comes in not recognizing the issues in pub's post.. ignoring them, or being ignorant of them, and posting about "strategy". Read pub's post again for yourself.

This isn't something as simple as the root of all evil. There's no need to try to simplify my thoughts about this patch. Just read my threads about it and take it for what it is. This patch is built on Darkhold > challenge > reduced healing if you think otherwise tell me your side of it.

Your thread title is completely misrepresenting what Matsui is actually attempting to put forth in his comments. You are blowing this completely out of proportion and attempting to catch the developers in a "gotcha!" quote where you feel like you have been wronged. It's petty and immature.

I know what you're saying but that's not what I want to do. I hope this thread gets Matsui's attention so he goes "Oh, let me reconsider my role on the dev team." He may not think of himself as a producer but in a sense he is.

Neptune is a troll, he will never stop posting here because he feels entitled too. Its probably best to ignore his posts. But I do enjoy laughing at them though mainly due to his feigned ignorance.

You can't resist can you? Glad to provide some entertainment sir.

Welcome to Neptune world, where (his) opinions are fact, and insults are "helpful suggestions attempting to improve the game for everyone" ("for everyone" = " for Neptune").

Read one or two of his posts and you've pretty much read them all.

Have you ever read a post from me about a man eating his own head? Then you HAVEN'T read them all.

granted, meelee may get the short end of the stick in some stuff, but you cant fully blame the game mechanics on that the dungeon CAN be done without all ranged people just refuse to try

Good to see someone sticking up for melee thevedis. You're right that you can't fully blame the game mechanics, but you CAN partially blame the game mechanics. And I think the game mechanics are a very important part, and the first part of the problem not the second. So that's why I think it's the most important part. People refuse to try you're right, but shouldn't the dev team use their power to give people an incentive to try, instead of an incentive to clear it with GLA/ARC/CON?

i have to dissagree with this. many many shells in FFXI as well as guilds in other MMOs are entirely focused on getting business done and thats it. then players go back to their social shells or alts.
im not saying this is true for everyone, but it is very prevalent.

This is a good point Dreadnought. EGLS's role in many cases is just to go in and get the clear the most efficient way possible. This is what Matsui needs to be reading right here.

but its funny when people complain about their shells doing it
if you dont like your shell doing it, get another shell obviously....one that actualy cares about its players and not just its elitist runs

Sadly those types of shells usually have a lot of trouble winning. I agree though people should be in a supportive shell. I've found that the most efficient way is to go with a shell that doesn't actually care.. like what Dreadnought posted. Usually they're more focused on the goal, sad but it works, and they run off the framework Matsui and the rest of the leaders establish. The good conditions start with the dev team leaders, and end with the linkshells.

Mods, please close this misleading thread. This guy's complaint is completely dependent on mistranslated comments. We don't need this incorrect information spreading around. Thank you.

If anyone still thinks of this thread as incorrect information, please just closely read the OP and the English translation. And if you hear someone saying Matsui is an asshole, that's not true.

This. Neptune's just trying to push his gripes with the MP changes again, and is willing to hop on any bandwagon available that only remotely looks like it's going into his direction. Poor.

I already responded to this, but what do you have to gain by belittling the issue at hand to bring up my (legit as demonstrated) gripes about MP cost?

[Neptune]

yeah I also confused with his statement

"The problem of melee being excluded is due to ridiculous MP cost hikes, and not due to melee players having no desire to learn strategy"

can someone explain to me his logic in this statement?

Yes. I'll explain. The dev team wanted to make a good raid, so they increased the challenge of it. It wasn't challenging so they reduced the opportunities to cast healing magic, which put the raid into balance. They reduced the opportunities to cast healing magic by hiking the MP cost of it. When players experienced the changes they reacted to it by minimizing the need to cast healing magic by having 1 player take damage from the enemies. The players are like an optimization system. They take stock of all resources available and form an efficient response to it. It was to not invite melee players to the raid, which is what the Japanese player posted about in his (very long) OP that I quoted. So that's how MP costs relates to players being excluded. Melee players are willing to learn strategy, but that never entered into the equation as you can see.

[Arcell]

The best of the two in this instance, not in general. You want SE to adjust the game based on one raid. What if the boss stayed static in one position and there was AoE all over the place except at melee range? Then Archers wouldn't get invites because they can take very little damage compared to the other classes. Would that mean that they have to give Archers the same durability as a Gladiator? Of course not. Every encounter will be easier for some, it's variety. Now it's an issue because it's the one raid. As SE adds more raids encounters will favor different approaches.

No I'm speaking in general. This dungeon is a very good example of why things need to be balanced a bit more but it will continue happening in future dungeons if things don't change. Ranged damage should not be equal to melee damage, otherwise they still have the advantage of staying out of range and not getting hit. I'm not saying they should do obnoxiously less than others but enough of a difference to be noticeable at least. Maybe 85-90% of melee damage. People would still bring them as they have little chance to die so they would be the "safe" bet in most cases. If you wanted to take a few more chances and do more damage at the cost of higher potential death then they would bring melee classes.

Yes I am one of these melee classes, Pugilist. We've gotten a strange end of the stick as we now have MP cost added to a few of our staple attacks. However I intend to take Musketeer up the minute it's available. That being said I would still be okay with less damage for the advantage of the range and whatever else they bring to the table.

Edit: Another acceptable way to tip the balance away from Archers would be to make some things much more resistant to pierce. Make those damage modifiers actually mean something noticeable.

[Gath]

TL;DR
but, from what I have read elsewhere (I do not reveal my sources), Matsui is going to make it so there are blind spots in mobs AoE, so, this thread is definitely inventory space -1.

[Misha]

TL;DR
but, from what I have read elsewhere (I do not reveal my sources), Matsui is going to make it so there are blind spots in mobs AoE, so, this thread is definitely inventory space -1.

Is already blind spots in Aoe's... and the ones that have a full aoe usually give you more than enough time to interrupt them quite easily (Ogre for example is laughably easy to interrupt) People just too duuuurrrr to move to side of mob or behind or use a ws's while the mob is charging up (Or heck if they get hit, use a second wind or a cure :P)^^ Positioning and timing is part of melee, it's not just hitting max dps! Glad they aren't giving into the people who just wanna stand still and mash dps buttons LoL

Simply put: Use your heads people lol it's not hard xD Sad thing is, this is one of the easier mmo's to evade mob specials/aoe's... Anyone who can't do such simple things shouldn't be in your pt in the first place!!! (Even as a derpa archer lol)

[TirionCrey]

I said it on page 1 already but my post got deleted...Neptune is trying to get EVERY possible way of getting his MP costs being reduced at least tried out.

He gives a *** about meeles and them being excluded from the R50 dnugeon, he just uses them as another "argument" for his MP cost to be reduced, which he tried like over nine thousand times already.

Why can't you just wait? They will adjust MP cost anyway and prolly lower it cause of all the QQers.

I'm not even a stupid CON/THM as my main class and even I can maintain 800+ MP throughout the whole fight on Ogre and Batraal(til 20%~) if I'm going on CON/THM instead of GLA to tank...so YOU are doing something wrong if you don't get it done as well.

It's so simple actually:

Position, Spiritbind, Cure, put weapon away, rince and repeat...that does require a "capable" tank though who is good at its class and is able to avoid dmg completely in between some hits(Featherfoot, Foresight, Decoy, Devision etc), otherwise you will need to cure more often and can't really regen MP in between that much...but then you should tell your tank "L2P"...

[Xenor]

Wah wah my CRP can't do this dungeon either! I'd better level a mage or ARC. Oh wait... There will always be optimal setups. If you're good you'll be able to do it with less than optimal. The dungeon is rather easy once you have experience. Especially when you reach the point where you have enough spare time that if you do wipe on Batraal's last phase you can run back to kill him from 100% with no skeletons.

[Sigmakan]

Is already blind spots in Aoe's... and the ones that have a full aoe usually give you more than enough time to interrupt them quite easily (Ogre for example is laughably easy to interrupt) People just too duuuurrrr to move to side of mob or behind or use a ws's while the mob is charging up (Or heck if they get hit, use a second wind or a cure :P)^^ Positioning and timing is part of melee, it's not just hitting max dps! Glad they aren't giving into the people who just wanna stand still and mash dps buttons LoL

Simply put: Use your heads people lol it's not hard xD Sad thing is, this is one of the easier mmo's to evade mob specials/aoe's... Anyone who can't do such simple things shouldn't be in your pt in the first place!!! (Even as a derpa archer lol)

Thing is, the WS-stun thing isnt 100% (better if you're using shield bash or leg sweep, obviously) If it was then maybe this argument would be more valid. And when this WS hits during his rage phase it easily does over 1500 dmg. Seems like a pretty good incentive to have ARC dps instead of melees.